Looking for ideas on a kitchen plan
My wife and I are currently in the very early stages of planning out a new build home with a builder in our area. The initial plan has a "g-shaped" kitchen that is more closed off than we'd like. The space available for the kitchen is good-sized, approximately 16'8" x 14, and, with a few small modifications could be as large as 16'8" x 15'7". I've attached an image and wanted to get some thoughts:
1. Is a 48" wide fridge too large for this space? We have 3 kids with unique dietary needs (two Celiac's) and are really looking at this house as our "end-house". And, I've never heard someone utter the phrase, "this fridge is just too big for our needs."
2. I do a lot of cooking and my wife does a lot of baking. We're looking at a 48" wide range. The same thinking on the fridge would apply to the dual fuel range. Is this just a bit too big for the space? I like the idea of a mantle space above the range (custom hood), similar to some of the kitchens designed by Christopher Peacock.
3. It's a fairly open space that serves to connect a great room, a back mudroom/laundry/pantry area, a butler's pantry and dining room, and a breakfast nook with a sliding glass door out to the back patio. I'm fearful that the island (spec'd to 4'x8' in my attached drawing) is in the way of the traffic plan. But, I also want to be able to have the 3 kids sit at the island for lunch, meals, etc...
4. We'd also like to use this space for entertaining. Is it too small?
5. The transition to the family room is still challenging me. I like the idea of an arch that transoms the opening. It's symmetrical to the island and there is a fireplace in the family room along this same axis of symmetry. But, I'm still unsure about having the 2-sided book cases break up the flow of traffic. Any thoughts here are greatly appreciated.
6. In one of my early plans, I had the range where the sink is currently located. This made for a nice cooking center that incorporated the use of the island. We c
1. Is a 48" wide fridge too large for this space? We have 3 kids with unique dietary needs (two Celiac's) and are really looking at this house as our "end-house". And, I've never heard someone utter the phrase, "this fridge is just too big for our needs."
2. I do a lot of cooking and my wife does a lot of baking. We're looking at a 48" wide range. The same thinking on the fridge would apply to the dual fuel range. Is this just a bit too big for the space? I like the idea of a mantle space above the range (custom hood), similar to some of the kitchens designed by Christopher Peacock.
3. It's a fairly open space that serves to connect a great room, a back mudroom/laundry/pantry area, a butler's pantry and dining room, and a breakfast nook with a sliding glass door out to the back patio. I'm fearful that the island (spec'd to 4'x8' in my attached drawing) is in the way of the traffic plan. But, I also want to be able to have the 3 kids sit at the island for lunch, meals, etc...
4. We'd also like to use this space for entertaining. Is it too small?
5. The transition to the family room is still challenging me. I like the idea of an arch that transoms the opening. It's symmetrical to the island and there is a fireplace in the family room along this same axis of symmetry. But, I'm still unsure about having the 2-sided book cases break up the flow of traffic. Any thoughts here are greatly appreciated.
6. In one of my early plans, I had the range where the sink is currently located. This made for a nice cooking center that incorporated the use of the island. We c
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6. In one of my early plans, I had the range where the sink is currently located. This made for a nice cooking center that incorporated the use of the island. We could still do that with the new location for the range, but I'm still kicking around the previous idea. In either case, I have 4 foot of space between the island and the nearest counters/range/sink. I've seen people use 3 to 3'6" as well. Is there a general standard? Is bigger better? I'm inclined to stick with the 4 foot space, as my biggest complaint in my current house is not having dedicated space to cook.
7. In many of the photos I've looked at on Houzz, I see an emergence of marble in the kitchen. With the "white kitchen" look I'm going for, this would be nice with white maple cabinets, deep-colored espresso floor, and honey/dark-colored island cabinetry. Nickel drawer pulls, pendant lights, and light counters would complete that look. Only problem is that I've read over and over again about marble not being a good material for a kitchen with kids. Any thoughts here are welcomed.
8. We're planning a custom hood for the range. With the high CFM's of some of these hoods, I understand I need a makeup supply system. We're prepared to put this in, most likely along the wall that has the fridge and the sink. That's a garage wall. Is this acceptable, or does the supply line need to go all the way outside?
9. I've got a pantry planned just off the kitchen near the laundry area. This would store most of our flours, dry goods, and other items. Our current kitchen has a pantry in the actual space. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the pros/cons of putting it just off the kitchen space.
10. We will be putting in countertops and cabinets in the butlers pantry, along with a small bar sink. I've also considered putting in a wine fridge in this space. Thoughts on using the same color scheme as the kitchen would help.
I think that about covers all of my current questions. I look forward to hearing all of your input!
Thanks,
Clif
2.Same for the range. Functionality is most important. Get the size range you need, and work the space around it. It's not too large for your space.
3.The island isn’t in the way of traffic as you can move around it on all sides.
4.Perfect size for entertaining. My kitchen is a little smaller and we routinely have 20 or more people milling around the kitchen. My daughter once had 25 kids making sushi in the kitchen at the same time.
5.I don’t mind the 2-sided bookcase on the breakfast room end, but I would keep the cabinet space nearest the range for kitchen work space and storage. Then again, it depends on your needs.
6.Four feet walkway all around the island is best, especially with your size family. Open oven doors, fridge door or dishwasher, get in the way and cause a bit of a road block when the space is narrower, but is still functional. I like the range where it is, but consider moving the island sink to the other end of the island to be near the fridge to use for food prep.
7.Marble does stain very easily, and it will chip. You can get ‘the look’ with more durable manufactured products. Some of those are susceptible to staining, also, but are much easier to clean.
8.I would have the air supply go outside. We usually install a ‘remote’ fan in an attic, but the fan could be in the garage with venting to the outside. This makes the unit quieter because the fan is further away, and it exhausts effectively.
9.This is a very personal preference depending on how you use your kitchen. Consider your steps and how often you’ll have to run into the pantry. I would keep items you use the most in the main kitchen as close as possible to where you’ll use them the most, and bulk items and seldom used items in the separate pantry.
10.Again, this is personal preference. You didn’t say what your style is, but it would be cohesive to have the same look. You could also make it look more like furniture since it transitions to the dining area.
1. I like the idea of a 24" counter top along that wall instead of the fridge. In spite of the entrance to the butler's pantry being a 36" opening, the fridge door, or the freezer door would certainly get in the way.
2. My primary reason for the 48" range over the 36" is the double ovens. Our current kitchen layout is rife with wasted and inefficient counter top space and I would really like to avoid using 30-36" of potential counter space to put in a pair of wall ovens. That said, I certainly realize that the 2nd oven in a 48 range is not nearly as big as a second wall oven. I'm willing to live with this as a bulk of the items going into the smaller, 2nd oven on the 48" range won't be a full cookie sheet or a full turkey...
3. Thanks for the note about the island. I was a tad concerned about it interrupting the flow of traffic from the mudroom area (where our kids are likely to dump 90% or thereabouts of their school bags and miscellaneous other items to the rest of the house. I've kicked around the idea of a rear-staircase so that they can immediately take the remainder of items up to their rooms. The total square footage I'm shooting at is around 3200, so it may not make sense to have two staircases. Something to think about, though.
4. Thanks for the feedback on the kitchen. I suppose my worry was that I see these islands on Houzz and in the kitchen showplaces nearby and they are 4x10, 4x12, 6x10 and they seem massive (they are, really). If a 4x8' island is the right size for the kitchen (we have enough space around it), then that's a settled point.
5. The one bookshelf opposite the range (on the exterior wall, nearest to the doorwall for the breakfast nook) makes sense to me. That divides the space up into two distinct areas without going too far. My current house was built in the 1950's and it drives me crazy to have no openness to the house whatsoever. On the opposite side, though, I don't want it to feel like a bowling alley. Hence the bookcases. I do like your idea about having the bookcase/counter area nearest to the range being an extension to that cooking space. That would work nicely.
6. The note about the food prep sink on the island really works well. Being closer to the fridge and the main sink makes sense. We're thinking of putting a microwave at that end of the island too. And, yes, I'll be putting a disposal into the island food prep sink.
7. Your notes about marble are consistent with all of the caveats I've read. Granite's my wife's favorite choice, though the white granite I've seen at the local Ciot and other supply stores has too much gold or other odd tones to it. I suppose it's all about finding the exact color combination you like and then sticking to it.
8. Good point on the air supply. As the garage is near the range and the kitchen (currently the wall that the sink and the fridge sit along), the range could sent through those rafters - assuming they run the right way - and the supply makeup air could come in parallel to that.
9. Good points on the pantry - I view that space as really more a "Costco purchase storage center" than a day to day access area. We've got a similar pantry now, but it's filled with all of the glad-ware, our stand mixer, and misc items that I don't have room for because of a lack of usable counter space. This new kitchen will have something like 60 square feet of counter space, which is a 2-3-fold increase on our current layout. So the pantry won't have to do double-duty as the repository of gadgets. As we'll have plenty of upper and lower cabinet space too, we could consider the tall cabinet idea you noted in #1. Something to think about.
10. I like the idea of the furniture style idea. As I've considered using a darker wood cabinet for the island in an otherwise white kitchen (I like the Benjamin Moore "Storm" color - a blue-gray to balance out all of the white), we could go with the same wood cabinets for the pantry. As the island will utilize some floor posts/feet, that theme could be paralleled in the butler's pantry.
-Really appreciate all of your feedback - this site is a fantastic resource for both homeowners looking to renovate as well as those interested in building.
-Clif
yes to moving the fridge - you dont want it next to the doorway. but instead of a pantry cupboard, place your wall oven here. you can go with a dual oven, or a single with convection/MW combo, and add a warming drawer - like i did - LOVE IT. i dual bake alot!! (see pics)
i would put your range/oven on the long wall and your sink on the short wall (so switch them) if plumbing allows
you may want to consider a 48" range top vs a stove - its much cheaper and with the wall oven (s) its still cheaper if your plan was to have 2 ovens anyway.
countertop - go QUARTZ!! a little more expensive than granite but harder, less pourous and a much more uniform pattern. see my pic :-)
my hood fan is a 600CFM Faber - its vented to outside and there are no issues. more than 600CFM and you may have issues.
PANTRY - OMG - I LOVE my pantries - yes, I have TWO! both are through the arch to the right of the wall oven. (i converted the mudroom to have an extra closet which is a pantry). the fact that they are NOT in the kitchen is wonderful. to that end...i added 2 pull out spice racks on either side of my range - nice touch. i use my back pantry to store all of my appliances, Tupperware, canning stuff, etc.. - so my counters stay clean and tidy.
you mentioned putting your MW in the island..meh...you have to bend over all the time to look inside and if you get the drawer version, its not tall enough for a tall coffee mug. pass on this. you CAN put warming drawer in the island though.
you may want to include an appliance garage if you want to keep heavy things in the kitchen but out of the way (like stand mixer)
if you bake alot and are under 5'10" you may wish to lower one end of your island to make a baking centre (think kneading bread, mixing cookies) i wish i had this :-(
Other luxuries that are relativly innexpensive:
Pot filler (must be mounted on counter if only wall option is outside wall, true for cold climates only)
instant hot water - nice, nice, nice!!!
garburator in the PREP SINK! (you mentioned that)
OH...make sure you place your light switches at all exits from the room - i didn't listen to the lighting guy and i regret it! (butler pantry, mudroom, great room)
thats all i have - enjoy your new space!!!
http://www.caesarstone.ca/en/Pages/default.aspx
I think the dimesions of the island are fine for the space you have.
The bookcase between the rooms sounds Ok. Have you thought of instead of 2 bookcase have 1 & make the other a stand up cabinet holding good glasswear. with a little lighting inside can work well as a partition.
The original plan had a full wall between most of the kitchen and the great room, with base and upper cabinets along that wall. There was no island in the kitchen and I didn't feel the space flowed well into the surrounding rooms. Enter the current iteration. I wanted to take down the wall between kitchen and great room, but not in a way that muddled up the transition - hence the bookcases with pillars (like in White kitchen and breakfast room with fireplace and arches).
The challenge that I have now is that placement of the fridge/freezer has become tricky. I'm not sure about having a pair of wall ovens adjacent to the doorway to the butler's pantry. I'm not opposed to the idea of a range top and wall ovens, it's just that I don't know exactly where to put them. I had thought about moving them to the right of the sink along the long wall (adjacent to where one would walk into the kitchen/breakfast space)...
I very much like the look of this plan too Parkwood Road Residence Kitchen - with the range centered on the island and the mantle-styled range hood. And this could work along the long wall. Again, my challenge would be where I place the fridge, the sink, and the DW. I had thought about the large sink in the island or even the range in the island - especially since the 4x8 is fairly large - but my wife doesn't want to lose all of that cooking/prep/eating/etc space. So that leaves me to the shorter wall. I had thought about the fridge, sink, and DW being placed along that wall. But I get to the issue of having the island obstruct the walking flow from fridge to range. So it's a bit of a challenge...
Again, I appreciate the different thoughts and ideas. Something will eventually click for me and I'll know it's exactly what I want. There are just so many possibilities and, being an engineer, I want to get the "right" one.
Clif
get a designer to help you - you are going to drive yourself nuts contemplating al lthe "what ifs" and you'll do it all over again when you start selecting appliances - particularly if you are planning to go with higher end ones.
For example can the butler's pantry be redesign as a kitchenette with all the appliances necessary for your special diet need, Should the pantry have a freezer and bulk storage and or work surfaces do homework, crafts, or stage the clean items. Shouldn't the mud room have laundry facilities and a 1/2 bath or a full bath so that dirty items and kids clean up without going further into the house, Do you need a place to wash dogs or for the cats litter box. The current design waste space, money and you need more than we can or should provide.
I'm saying we can help you deduce what the details could look like, but only in the context of the design provided. Your own provided details, however indicate that you would be better served asking those here the broader questions of given this space and these goals how should I organize these functions. Based on our input and a possible local designer we can more effectively comment on suggested tweaks or solve specific concerns.
I'm in the process of doing a last house for Marian and I. I've done 4 major redesigns and more than 100 tweaks with more coming before we break ground. The functional interrelationship between the spaces hasn't changed because I spent the time thinking about how I wanted the space to work for me. Last houses take planning for spaces adaptations to future changes, kids growing up (moveing out, moving back in, moving out), short term handicaps (a broken hip) or just growing old. (3'doors to all rooms and closets, roll in showers, ect) Go through the general before you try to do the specifics.
http://www.mainlinekitchendesign.com/general/im-doing-a-kitchen-addition-whats-my-first-step/
To Kate - on the fridge, I like your thoughts on the 2 separate units. We could consider them along the long wall, flanking the center-oriented sink. That would mean that the freezer door - while 27" is a good size - wouldn't entirely cover the entrance to the butler's pantry. And the fridge could be on the other side of the sink - nearest to the breakfast nook - for quick access to milk, juice, butter, and so forth.
Am thinking about a warming drawer, maybe a wall cabinet with a microwave between the freezer and the entrance to the butler's pantry could work. If I opted out of the full 48" range, then that same unit could house the 36" wall oven and we'd go with a 48" rangetop on the short wall instead.
The transition to the great room is really my big area of thinking and re-thinking. When we start the process of discussing the layout (and, provided I can get the kitchen designer in on this process earlier), that will be a focus area for my wife and I.
Thanks again for all of your input!
Clif
Thanks again for the input and feedback!
Clif
Oh - and be sure to choose colours that you are happy to live with for a long time, if this is going to be your "forever home" !
But most of all enjoy making your dreams into reality !! Best wishes !