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Tile help!!!!!!!
aclark900
December 1, 2012 in Design Dilemma
We are building a custom home and the tile was put down this week. It is Daltile Kimona Silk 12x12. It has a "lip" at every corner and is not laid flat at all. The builder and tile installer said with "square-edged" tile you cannot expect a flat floor. !!! Is this true?! It looks awful. See picture.
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bdennison
That is BULL. They need to fix that right aaway.
18 Likes   December 1, 2012 at 4:28PM
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PRO
Vera Beaman Design Consultant Ward Brown Builders
they did not level the floor is this a slab?
0 Likes   December 1, 2012 at 4:50PM
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defever
BULL PUCKY! They are handing you a line. Tiles can be leveled by adjusting the amount of mortar. There are products out there specially made for making sure tiles are level. I know this because we did our own tiling and we are NOT professionals. What makes me nervous is wondering whether they prepped the floor correctly to begin with? If not, your tiles will be cracking and coming out. Call them on their bluff, then call the Better Business Bureau and/or the Attorney General's office if they don't make things right.
10 Likes   December 1, 2012 at 4:55PM
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Aja Mazin
CALL YOUR BANK.
STOP PAYMENT!
11 Likes   December 1, 2012 at 5:08PM
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PRO
MHA Home Services
A good tile professional should be able to set most ceramic tile level by adjusting the thin set levels. Pre leveling the floor is also important and would be part of any good tradesman protocol before they start setting tile. Ask them to correct it and give them an opportunity. A good contractor will make it right.
5 Likes   December 1, 2012 at 5:08PM
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Aja Mazin
And they thought you would believe that?
3 Likes   December 1, 2012 at 5:09PM
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Arlen Dau
They are being lazy. Have it their way and the grout would be 1/2" wide. You can and must expect better. It's not easy, nor is it a fast job when the tiles have an edge. With a 12" tile the floor MUST be leveled and I prefer to put down a Ditra underlayment.
4 Likes   December 1, 2012 at 5:10PM
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Vera Beaman Design Consultant Ward Brown Builders
I am a decorator for a builder and looks like someone other than you is going to buying some more tile take the pictures and ask the builder/contractor when they are going to rectify this mistake. Do not even accept anything but that. If they do not redo then small claims court. I agree with Aja stop payment...ought to get their attention !!!
2 Likes   December 1, 2012 at 5:53PM
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anitakje
Cannot believe your builder backed the installer...there is no excuse for either of them for trying to pass this off as anything but poor workmanship. Your builder just showed you where his loyalty lies and it's not in you....the one paying him.
4 Likes   December 1, 2012 at 6:53PM
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minemine
Some of those tiles look like they have enough of a lip that someone could catch their foot on it and take a fall. This is not just an esthetics issue, but a safety one as well. Stand firm and demand that they rectify the problem.
11 Likes   December 1, 2012 at 7:22PM
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Linda
Unacceptable for a new build custom home. It is the installer's responsibility to level the floor before beginning the install. Also, installer's responsibility to be sure the tile is suitable for the purpose before installation
6 Likes   December 1, 2012 at 7:33PM
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menghini
I'm a custom builder and I can say that the workmanship you received is sub-par. It is also very curious as it appears like the tile setter did not use "hardi board" as a backer, which is a must. Tell your builder he should do better.
6 Likes   December 1, 2012 at 7:45PM
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PRO
BeautifulRemodel.com
Hi aclark900,

I am so sorry to hear you're going through this. I'm a general contractor, and we install a large amount of rectified tile (square edge) every year and this simply looks like a very poor installation. There are a few points that I'd like to clarify though as there may be some other factors at play here.

All tile can have a small amount of "cupping", and this is exaggerated greatly when its installed in a running bond like yours. Your tile actually looks more like 12x24 not 12x12, but the only reason that's relevant is that the larger format increases the issue of lippage with cupped tiles.

We always check the tile for cupping by holding two tiles face to face before installation, this needs to be done with multiple tiles. If the deflection is more than 3/32" we show the client and may have to switch to a grid layout instead. If you have noticeable cupping in your tiles, the installer should have pointed this out to you beforehand.

Floors are rarely "leveled" before a tile installation (There are exceptions for individual rooms with one entry). The majority of concrete slab installations are not level, for a variety of reasons. However, they DO need to be FLAT for a good tile installation. This should always be tested prior to a tile install, and is very easy to do using a long straight edge. Grinding and leveling is the solution, and a common procedure on almost every one of our slab projects.

If your contractor refuses to fix the problem, then I agree completely with the others who have suggested stopping any payments (if possible) and contacting your local ROC and BBB to get their help. You can also contact the CTI (Ceramic Tile Institute) as they can perform inspections to evaluate issues like yours. http://www.ctioa.org/

I hope you're able to resolve this quickly and to your complete satisfaction.

~Steve
13 Likes   December 1, 2012 at 8:07PM
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aclark900
Thank you everyone!!!!! Your advice much appreciated. Looks like they have some work to do!!
3 Likes   December 2, 2012 at 6:25AM
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Linda
Steve - thanks for the explanation about the grid layout issue. I've shied away from the really large tiles since I don't like the idea of trying to get my surface flat enough...sounds like a decision I'll continue to make.

I own an old flooring edger that I bought from a tile guy who used it to grind down the high spots on floors
1 Like   December 2, 2012 at 5:01PM
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PRO
Deborah Butler, Brickwood Builders
This is due to the tile not the prep or the installation. This tIle appears to be much larger than 12x12. A running bond pattern exacerbates the issue. The cupping is inherent in the tIle. More mortar will not correct the issue. Whoever decided on the design should have noted this.
0 Likes   December 2, 2012 at 5:58PM
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yaleservice
They are amateurs!!!
2 Likes   December 2, 2012 at 6:26PM
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aclark900
It's 12 x 12 tile for sure. I'm measuring it with a tape measure.
1 Like   December 2, 2012 at 8:09PM
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E
5 years ago when we built our home, the builder corrected the tiles as long as the lip was thicker than a quarter. Even for lips that were not as thick as a quarter, they did try to fix them, but they could not fix all the tiles such that they were all perfectly aligned. In other words, there are still some areas where you could feel the unevenness, but it wasn't deep enough to trip on. Is there such an agreement with your builder? Does anyone know what's industry acceptable?
0 Likes   December 2, 2012 at 9:44PM
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Deborah Butler, Brickwood Builders
In one picture it looks like 12x12 and in the other(the one on the right) it looks like 12x24. Maybe just an illusion in the photo. For a 12x12 the lippage should be controllable with floor preparation and the use of proper mortar. The variation, if any, should be very slight. For tiles above 12x12, the manufacturers are now sending out warnings to the tile stores to not use a running bond pattern at a 1/2 offset as the lippage cannot be controlled in installation. A 1/3 offset is better, but does not fully eliminate the problem.

In a 12x12 I would consider this to be unacceptable - with one exception. If the tilesetter and/or builder proposed leveling the floor and the homeowner decided not to do it, then I would say the homeowner accepted responsibility for this.
1 Like   December 3, 2012 at 3:55AM
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PRO
3D-Tile-Design - Bertram Tasch
Hello aclark900,

Sorry I missed this question/thread two months ago. First: The tile size really looks not like a 12" x 12" it looks more like a 12" x 14" however it could be just an illusion in the photo.

About the installation of the tiles: Such work is definitely NOT acceptable! And the statements from your builder and your tile installer: "...The builder and tile installer said with "square-edged" tile you cannot expect a flat floor...." and also all your other postings regarding the bad and insufficient work in your house lead me to the conclusion your contractor and his subs were not your best choice.

Now the big question is: Did you do your homework and researched and investigated enough before you hired this GC whether he is capable to fulfil the work in a manner you expected or did you just go with the lowest bid and assumed you will get what you expect even for the maybe lower amount of money?

As many others already said : You can not have wine for the price of beer. That means to deliver 1A quality it needs for sure more time. And very important is the necessary and proper preparation work, which to perform needs in most cases even more times than to set the tiles. Now count together: The actual tilework needs already more time compared to a guy who just spreads the thinset and lays the tiles down like it looks in your case. In addition there is the time for preparation and the higher end materials for preparation and tile setting.

Therefore an outstanding, long-lasting and worry-free tile installation (short a high end Job) with which a customer is fully satisfied and where he never ever will have problems in the future will cost him probably 3 times the money what "other" tile-setters would charge him. And I promise, when you divide the money you spent by the time which was needed, you will figure out that the "shabby-working" guy has even earned more money per hour for his job compared to the guy who did the high end job.

Back to your tilework. There is only one way to fix it and I bet you won't like this solution. The floor has to be ripped out completely down to the sub-floor and all thinset residues must be removed (eventually by grinding the floor) so that you will see the bare plywood. Assumed your sub-floor is stable/sound enough, it must be cleaned properly (by vacuuming) and thereafter primed with an appropriate primer. If your floor is out of level and you want to have it not just even rather than in level, you have to poure down a self-levelling compound to bring it in level. You can also use the self levelling compound just to flatten the floor without leveling it. This would be the case if your floor is way out of level and to bring it in level would result in having steps in your doors.

Thereafter it is a piece of cake for an experienced tile-setter to lay the tiles absolutely flat without having any lippages. However whether the floor will be 100% lippage free or whether you will still have some small lippages is also depending on the quality of the tiles, the size and on the pattern the tiles are installed. BeautifulRemodel.com pointed this already out.

Regards,

3D-Tile-Design - Bertram Tasch
Maple Ridge, BC (Greater Vancouver) http://www.3D-Tile-Design.ca
4 Likes   February 12, 2013 at 3:11PM
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kristinb16
I am sorry for all your problems. I have been looking through the discussion board and it appears you have many issues at hand. I am in the process of buy land to start building and am now very nervous
0 Likes   February 12, 2013 at 4:13PM
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PRO
JWinteriors
Rip it out! Shame on those installers!
1 Like   February 12, 2013 at 4:30PM
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Aja Mazin
They have closed on the house.
0 Likes   February 12, 2013 at 6:11PM
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Norm Walters Construction Inc.
Not to say that probably is a bad installation, but I have seen tile that warped when it was fired at the factory, impossible to lay it without lippage.
0 Likes   February 12, 2013 at 8:18PM
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Natalie
Terrible... No if's, and's or but's about it... The tile needs to be ripped out and installed properly. Good Luck!
1 Like   February 12, 2013 at 8:25PM
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judianna20
Oh, for crying out loud. This woman has been posting for weeks looking for support. Help her out. The builder screwed them, not just on tile, but on paint, staining and plumbing. Read her other posts. She and her husband hired, in good faith, a builder who presented himself as a professional. THE BUCK STOPS WITH THE BUILDER.
2 Likes   February 12, 2013 at 8:42PM
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PRO
3D-Tile-Design - Bertram Tasch
Hi Norm, you are right. With warped tiles you cannot lay a floor 100% lippage free like shown in the pictures. However you can easily avoid these lippages by installing the tiles only in a so called "stuck" pattern with cross joints. The question is whether you like this stuck-pattern. For more information please read also this thread: ► http://www.houzz.com/discussions/334592/Tile-floor-unevenness

The lippages which we can see in the above pictures are definitely the fault of the tile-setter !!! The sub-floor seems very uneven. You can clearly see the big gaps in the right picture at the far corner underneath the baseboard. You can also clearly see that one tile stays throughout higher then the nearby tiles. So it is definetly not a problem of warpage.

► Picture 1) The floor was more than 1/2" out of level. Luckily the highest point of the room was at the door. We needed 8 bags of ARDEX liquid backer board self-levelling compound and 2 hours to fix the floor.
► Picture 2 and 3) You see how warped the tiles were which we have installed on this floor.
► Picture 4) The result of proper preparation work and proper tile setting is an lippage free and leveled floor. Neither the toilet nor the vanity-cabinetts will rock.

Cheers Bertram
.
2 Likes   February 12, 2013 at 10:05PM
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Aja Mazin
Is that Daltile
Kimona Silk 12" x 24" Field Tile in White Orchid?
0 Likes   February 12, 2013 at 10:13PM
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3D-Tile-Design - Bertram Tasch
@ Aja - Did you ask me? If yes, the answer is No. It's a 12" x 24" Travertine imitation. However if you'd like to know the exact name of the tiles and where he bought it, I can ask my customer.
0 Likes   February 12, 2013 at 10:25PM
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minemine
I learned something about tiles when I had my backsplash recently installed. I chose 2" x 10" glass tiles laid in a brick pattern. When the installer came he explained to me that the tiles would be higher in the center than on the ends. If I decided to go with the brick pattern, he wanted me to be aware that the lower ends would be butting up against the higher centers on the previous row, so it would not be a flat surface. Since I don't like the stacked look it was not an issue for me, and quite frankly it is not noticeable at all. However, I can see where this would be an issue on a floor. Too bad you weren't forwarned about this by the builder or installer. Were these tiles chosen independently by you, or did the builder have samples for you to choose from? If the builder supplied the tiles then I think he has a responsiblity to make sure the choices he offers will work.
1 Like   February 12, 2013 at 10:34PM
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hparks74
Contact dal tile. Inform them of this error and what your installer is telling you. Communicate as much in email so you have proof of conversations. Even if you talk on the phone send a email "per our conversation today you are doing....etc. CYA if you end up in court you be 5 steps ahead.
0 Likes   February 12, 2013 at 10:48PM
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PRO
Norm Walters Construction Inc.
I recommend having the builder supply all materials for this reason. You really aren't saving any money buying them yourself as a builder gets a discount on materials and even with a mark up it ends up just about the same cost, The builder also knows the good, the bad, and the ugly of many manufacturer's products based on the simple premise of trial and error.
0 Likes   February 13, 2013 at 4:18AM
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S. Thomas Kutch
There are many good points posted here, but when it all is boiled down .... the fault lies with the installer, period. Starting with lack of communication, quite possible pre-installation preparation and most certainly installation ...... that's the politically correct description. The plain blunt truth is this is crap and the mere fact that the builder's standing up for the sub is more indicative of his understanding of quality and knowledge........your problems and sub-standard workmanship is growing and this is just the aesthetics elements. What's hidden, that you're not seeing?

Who was managing this project? Who was doing inspections for quality for you? It would be nice if you explained just what your arrangement was with the builder and the Realtor. Was this a design build by the contractor? Was this a builder speculative that you bought? Was this your design and you acted as the GC hiring the builder to oversee the construction and the subs you hired or did you hire the Builder as the GC and he hired the subs? What role did the Realtor play here? Was this builder a recommendation from the Realtor?

There are just too many unanswered questions to give you good advice other than off the hip. More information is needed........you've posted many threads on problems with your new home and quite honestly, it's hard to imagine a builder so inept that is able to stay in business..........I suspect there is more to this story than you are telling us.
2 Likes   February 13, 2013 at 6:41AM
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rojonogo
Thomas, regarding inept builders: my parents had a home built in a beautiful, new neighborhood, using the same guy who built the other lovely homes. Their house looked beautiful, too... But by the time things started falling apart, the builder had bankrupted. He was cheating my parents by passing off subpar products and services, in order to stay afloat. Unlike the builder's other homes, which were completed before his troubles began, this turned into a money pit. The wiring and plumbing are the worst I have ever encountered, the hardwood floors were ruined within 3 years, and when the decorative facing on all the cabinets began to swell with moisture and crack out from under the paint, we realized they were made of some type of pressed cardboard. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I inferred that you are suspicious of the poster's claims. However, there are many inept and/or dishonest builders out there.
3 Likes   March 23, 2013 at 7:18PM
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PRO
Norm Walters Construction Inc.
Just to be clear, there are inept and dishonest people in all trades and professions. It's called society.
5 Likes   March 23, 2013 at 10:05PM
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Ed
aClark, so sorry to see that. In our bathroom remodel, we are using the same tiles as yours -- DalTile Kimona Silk (Rice Paper, P321), but bigger, 24x24 -- I attach 3 photos from today (no grout yet; that comes later this week :) -- Please keep us updated with your progress, and good luck --
0 Likes   March 24, 2013 at 6:00PM
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aclark900
Ed-thank you for the pictures! Will keep Houzz updated! Meeting with tile guy first week of April.
1 Like   March 25, 2013 at 6:14AM
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Ed
aClark, here are the same tiles from yesterday March 27, 2013, with fresh grout.
3 Likes   March 28, 2013 at 3:19PM
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Ed
aClark, it's almost tax day. How did the meeting go ? :)
0 Likes   April 14, 2013 at 6:09PM
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PRO
Rockin' Fine Finish
everybody has told you that the installer is wrong well heres another he is you can lay tile down and have that not happen sorry but they have to replace it a good installer knows how to lay it right.
0 Likes   April 14, 2013 at 6:19PM
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PRO
Norm Walters Construction Inc.
Ed, what are you using for the space between the bullnose tile on the curb?
0 Likes   April 14, 2013 at 10:08PM
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Ed
Hi RFF, are you referring to Clark's tiles or mine? Could you be more specific? Thanks.
Norm, are you referring to the ~1/2" of gap (white-ish) on the top of the dam? That's for the glass shower walls and glass shower door, to be installed yet.
0 Likes   April 14, 2013 at 11:25PM
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Rockin' Fine Finish
hi Ed i thought this post was about clark.
1 Like   April 15, 2013 at 7:50AM
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Ed
RFF, yes, but you posted almost immediately after my post yesterday and said "everybody has told you that the installer is wrong well heres another". I was not sure who was "you" in your post, and I thought you meant "Here is another wrong installer" for my tiles. So I just asked you to clarify. Now I see you meant "Here is another person (RFF) to tell you (Clark) that Clark's installer was wrong". Clark happened to pick the same tiles as ours and we just had ours installed, so it was good to share with him the photos. You also share many of your own experiences, sometimes with photos of your installations (doors, for example) to help others.
Also, Norm asked me a question about the bullnose. Thanks anyway.
1 Like   April 15, 2013 at 11:20AM
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Rockin' Fine Finish
Hey Ed sorry I know I need to be more direct I was typing on my phone and it's hard to always get it out right your floors look great !
0 Likes   April 15, 2013 at 5:19PM
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Ed
RFF, thanks! Don't text and drive! :)
1 Like   April 15, 2013 at 7:54PM
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Norm Walters Construction Inc.
Ed, it just seems like you will be depending on caulk to waterproof the curb.
0 Likes   April 15, 2013 at 8:06PM
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Ed
Norm, thanks! I'll ask -- I have no idea about any of this stuff (as you can tell from all my questions in other threads! ) But, thank you! :) Oh, so what other methods are available to waterproof other than caulk ? Here's a photo of the waterproofing underneath the curb (I don't know if it's too blurry to show the details) --
0 Likes   April 15, 2013 at 8:27PM
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Norm Walters Construction Inc.
It's a bit after the fact now, but the curb should have been waterproofed with either liquid waterproofing membrane or sheet membrane so that the tile is merely decorative. There should be no cement backer board on top of the curb because there is not way to attach it without putting screws through the shower pan liner, The curb should pitch into the shower also, hard to tell from the photo if it is or not, just thought I would mention it.
0 Likes   April 15, 2013 at 8:31PM
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Norm Walters Construction Inc.
Also the vapor retarder is sitting on the curb and will become a sponge.
0 Likes   April 15, 2013 at 8:38PM
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jnjnthomas
I'm coming in a little late, but to check cupping on the tile you can get a quality level which are often machined straight to .0001 of an inch. Get a short one like 14" for 12" tile and lay it across the tile. If it is cupped you will see a gap in the middle. If the straight edge rocks then the tile is bowed. A good installer should be able to minimize the difference even if the tiles are cupped. The manufacturer would also provide this info on the specs on the packaging.
0 Likes   April 15, 2013 at 9:49PM
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Ed
thomas, could you post a photo or link to such a "quality level" ? Thanks.
0 Likes   April 16, 2013 at 3:11AM
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Aja Mazin
Knowing
the
problem
existed,
he
closed
on
the
house.
0 Likes   April 16, 2013 at 2:08PM
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jnjnthomas
Here is a picture of the level I have. The label on the level will have the tolerance is was milled to. My memory was a little off, it is .0005 of an inch instead of .0001 of an inch. That is across the entire length of the 4 foot level. You can see the machine marks on a level that has been milled to a certain specification. Shorter less expensive levels aren't milled, but are still a pretty straight edge, much straighter than any 2 x 4. The 3rd and 4th photos are the level laying on some tile at my house done by the previous owners. You can see they are fairly straight for a most of the 4 feet, but the other end (the 4th photo) shows that they were not level. That is nearly a quarter inch. When they laid the tile they slapped them down and used something to keep them straight, relative to the next tile, but they did not check them for level so severe are uneven. It looks like your installer didn't even check them to make sure they were even with the next tile. Mine are 13 inch tiles, and they all have a slight dome to them in the center. Even with that, they should be even with the adjacent tiles.
0 Likes   April 16, 2013 at 10:46PM
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jnjnthomas
I don't have a shorter machined level, but this one shows the slight dome on my tile. You can see that there is no way they can claim the dome on the tiles are the cause of the uneven installation.
0 Likes   April 16, 2013 at 10:56PM
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Ed
thomas, thank you.
0 Likes   April 16, 2013 at 11:07PM
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PRO
Deborah Butler, Brickwood Builders
Actually Thomas, that's a pretty significant cupping in a 13" tile. It's hard to tell from your picture but they appear maybe to be a rectangle instead of square? They definitely are laid in a running bond pattern which is generally what causes most of the visual issues (along with herringbone patterns) because the highest point of the tile (the center) is being laid directly next to the shortest points (the four corners). The cupping comes from the manufacturing process and, our direct experience so far, seems to be an issue with tile at all price ranges. The installer can only do so much to mitigate the cupping during installation. The larger the tile size, the more prevalent the issue. The manufacturers and tile distributors are not doing a good job of informing buyers of the issues. We just did a job - called both the manufacturer and asked the distributor if there were any cupping issues with the selected tile. Both said no - but there was an issue and with a herringbone pattern it was difficult at best to install.

As far as level vs even, in the remodel of an existing house it is virtually impossible to get back to level (this applies to other things as well, not just floors). All houses settle and sink as they age. If you attempt to get to level, you could find yourself with huge issues as you move farther out in a space. The goal is to adjust to level if possible, but primarily to get to a state of "evenness or flatness". Then you don't affect how one space intersects with other spaces in the home that are not in the process of remodel. You don't want a 1" - 2" transition in height between a new floor and another floor that is not being changed just because you wanted to stay level with the wall on the other side of a room.
0 Likes   April 17, 2013 at 6:59AM
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PRO
Merri Interiors, Inc.
Bad job, bad contractor pushing for this to be accepted. Bad tile installer. Shame shame shame!
1 Like   April 17, 2013 at 7:17AM
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aclark900
Going to small claims court Friday!
0 Likes   August 27, 2013 at 3:38PM
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bdennison
What a shame. So sorry to hear you are going through this after nine months. Good luck with your claim. You are definitely in the right. I hope we are able to learn the outcome. I think you can help a lot of homeowners.
0 Likes   August 27, 2013 at 3:47PM
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PRO
Vera Beaman Design Consultant Ward Brown Builders
small claims court
0 Likes   August 27, 2013 at 6:23PM
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Vera Beaman Design Consultant Ward Brown Builders
take your houzz comments from pros with you!
0 Likes   August 27, 2013 at 6:24PM
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defever
Good luck!
0 Likes   August 27, 2013 at 9:41PM
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PRO
Twisted Minds Custom Designs
Any update on how small claims court went?
0 Likes   October 7, 2013 at 6:39AM
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drosa
That is really a crappy tile job. If they needed to to level the floor before placing tile then they should have known that. I'm a do it yourself tiler and could do a better job. There's one contractor on here named Martin Van Der Walt. The same type of sloppy work ethics and he also owes over $500 from an unpaid bill for plumbing work that my company did as a subcontractor. Buyer beware..
0 Likes   February 11, 2014 at 1:07PM
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aclark900
Hi everyone. Well my tile saga has finally come to an end...ugh.

The judge in small claims court settled in our favor. We sued for $6,000 (OK maximum for small claims) She only granted us $4,000. The good news is he has already paid us in full. I was hoping we were hoping we were not going to have to garnish his wages. The bad news-$4,000 isn't going to cover all the expenses in order to fix this giant mess!

So...here's my question/questions
-do we rip everything out?
-do we tile on top?
-what type of flooring?
-the back splash has to be removed, what type backsplash?

I need to start another post and post some more pictures. Would love all of your help with this situation!

Do you know how to eat an elephant?
-one bite at a time! Ha!
0 Likes   February 18, 2014 at 5:39AM
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drosa
That's really good that you were recognized as needing justice. It really is theft when you stand back and look. Your story inspires me to look into legal options concerning the general contractor, Martin Van Der Walt from North Vancouver BC, Canada. It likely will be chargeable as fraud. If not that then court order to pay plus court costs and interest
Thank you
0 Likes   February 18, 2014 at 8:10AM
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aclark900
Our new beautifully installed floor is almost complete!! I can't wait to show you all the after pics!
0 Likes   April 1, 2014 at 11:29AM
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PRO
Stone Trend Design & Build Inc.
You should make the name of your builder and his crew public .....
1 Like   August 1, 2014 at 8:03PM
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