Q/A Concrete Session - Concrete floor, concrete countertop and concrete fireplace discussion
We are new to Houzz and have noticed a lot of requests for a 'concrete' specific forum, to answer and address some decorative concrete questions.
When deciding if concrete is for you, think of concrete as comparable to any natural stone, in relation to imperfections, irregularities, and how it would react to staining. As long as you take care of it and have good sealers/waxes on the surface of your concrete, it's going to hold up well over time. Food grade sealers or waxes are used on kitchen countertops, so there is a barrier between the concrete and any food it might come into contact with. Make sure you do your research and use a reputable concrete contractor that uses high quality products, for a high quality long term result you'll be happy with. To clean and maintain concrete, we recommend natural non-abrasive cleaners.
Some other things home owners or clients should know about concrete... concrete will have variations and inconsistencies, all characteristic properties of concrete. With concrete we embrace and look forward to variations, in particular concrete floors will develop irregularities, freckles, hairline fractures, spider webbing, and a patina naturally with wear over time. If you choose concrete, be aware that as your concrete ages, it will continuously develop 'beauty marks.'
Homeowners, concrete experts, designers, architects, please join in on the discussion and post your pictures!
When deciding if concrete is for you, think of concrete as comparable to any natural stone, in relation to imperfections, irregularities, and how it would react to staining. As long as you take care of it and have good sealers/waxes on the surface of your concrete, it's going to hold up well over time. Food grade sealers or waxes are used on kitchen countertops, so there is a barrier between the concrete and any food it might come into contact with. Make sure you do your research and use a reputable concrete contractor that uses high quality products, for a high quality long term result you'll be happy with. To clean and maintain concrete, we recommend natural non-abrasive cleaners.
Some other things home owners or clients should know about concrete... concrete will have variations and inconsistencies, all characteristic properties of concrete. With concrete we embrace and look forward to variations, in particular concrete floors will develop irregularities, freckles, hairline fractures, spider webbing, and a patina naturally with wear over time. If you choose concrete, be aware that as your concrete ages, it will continuously develop 'beauty marks.'
Homeowners, concrete experts, designers, architects, please join in on the discussion and post your pictures!
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I just finished looking at this discussion, and I wonder if your company might want to advise this homeowner of the pitfalls of DIY where concrete countertops are concerned...
There are many pitfalls of DIY concrete countertops. The average DIY person may be overwhelmed with the amount of products, sealers, and 'how to' instructions available. Without receiving concrete education and having hands on experience, the quality and longevity of the countertop can be affected and can jeopardize the finished look. The greatest reason that we can advise against DIY concrete countertops, is because of the unpredictability that occurs naturally in concrete.
Concrete would be a great option for creating a cohesive look in your basement. It usually can be applied on top of the existing tiles to create a level, uniform floor, but without seeing your floor in person it's hard to know the preparation that would be required. Typically we'd need to do an onsite visit to properly assess the current floor and advise on the preparation that would be required to pour a concrete overlay. If we can pour the concrete floor on top of the existing tiles, you floors will be raised up a touch compared to what they are now.
Once a self-leveling concrete overlay is applied to your basement floor, you can stain the concrete, cut designs and/or seams into the concrete, and further personalize depending on your style and budget. A concrete top coat generally runs between $12-$18 per sq/ft (plus floor prep or tile removal if necessary), depending on the sealers, waxes and acid stains you want applied to the surface.
You can maybe find cheaper contractors in your area, just make sure they have plenty of experience and are using the best products, for guaranteed results. Let us know if you have any more questions!
I do agree concrete floors, counters and even furniture can be beautiful and very artistic, I have been very pleased with the other work I have done. The key to working with concrete is to know exactly what look you are after, what maintenance is needed to maintain it and then find the absolute best company to achieve it. Go view previous jobs and ask a lot of questions.
When was the work done?
How do they maintain it?
How has the colour held up? Acid etched vs stain?
And then ask who did this work. Key question!
As others have mentioned in previous posts, you need to be sure and do your home work. The phrase "inspect what you expect" comes to mind. Check around, get referrals, inspect their actual work, etc. Concrete is a great product and very durable but can be very tricky to install if not done correctly. Colors can change very easily and not all products are the same. The stains we have used and like are Kemiko and Direct Colors. Best of luck to you in your project.
Lydia C
Concrete is a great flooring option for your kitchen because it is durable, gives you flexibility of design options, has incredible longevity, it's easy to clean and maintain and it embraces age by developing a one-of-kind patina that is totally unique. Concrete is especially awesome in the kitchen because it's heat and spill resistant, is super durable, is easy to repair if necessary, and carries little risk of bacteria or allergens since there are no grout lines.
And the second part of your question is tricky... how do you decide who to hire? Anyone can create a great website and images, but who is truly the best contractor for you? This is such a great concern for all home and business owners. Here are some tips on how to weed out the good contractors from the good salesmen.
1. No matter how large or small project is, if you want a high quality outcome make sure your contractor is constantly educating themselves and using the latest techniques and best quality products available on the market. Your contractor's experience and product knowledge is crucial in determining the quality of the workmanship you pay for and your overall satisfaction for years to come.
2. We suggest meeting with potential contractors and interviewing them, test out their product knowledgeable, experience, see their portfolio, check reviews, referrals and talk to your friends about local experiences. After a few meetings with different contractors, you should be able to differentiate between the fly-by-night jack-of-all-trades, and the reputable quality contractor that brings the most knowledge and experience to your project. Do your research!
3. You usually get what you pay for, and getting the best deal or accepting the cheapest estimate, will probably not get you the best results or greatest longevity of the product. The difference in cost could be quality of materials, quality of workmanship, level of experience and quality of service. Again, make sure you do your research before weighing the possible options!
Good luck - hope that helps!
You can definitely install concrete floors on a wooden subfloor or wooden substrate. Concrete floors (often called skim coats, micro-toppings and overlays) are of similar thickness and weight to tile, so you should be fine structurally to install concrete on your main floor (provided your floor is adequately prepared and you hire an experienced concrete artisan). Make sure you use a reputable concrete contractor to ensure the proper preparation and techniques are being used on your project.
After preparing the wooden surface, a concrete contractor can pour a thin layer of new concrete to any room in your house. Depending on the flex in your wooden subfloor, hairline cracks are natural and expected to appear on the surface. This comes from the concrete slab being a single, solid piece of rock and the wood underneath is flexible and changes and shifts consistently. When the foundation of the house shifts, the concrete is subjected to various flex points and pressures which take the form of tiny hairline fractures in the material. For us, we love this aspect of concrete and it adds tremendous character to the floor.
Here is an image of a concrete overlay that we recently completed on the upper level of home, on top of a wooden substrate. Let us know if you have any more questions!
Great question - wouldn't that be horrible if the concrete floors actually cemented in your cabinets?! If you are updating an existing kitchen, an experienced and skilled concrete artisan will never allow your cabinets to directly come into contact with the concrete.
How the contractor does this, is by installing a seal gasket around all the cabinets in the kitchen prior to pouring the concrete floor and leaving a tiny gap between the liquid concrete and any finishings. Once the concrete floor is dry, the seal is removed and filled. The strip can be filled with silicone, grout, schluter strip or trim - you can easily make this virtually invisible by color matching.
Hope that answers your question :)
If doing on a wooden substrate, the best option is wire heating mats due to the thickness of the concrete overlay we use. The concrete is typically only 3/8" thick, so the heating would need to be contained within that thickness.
I did a counter job where the client wanted the front and back stretcher around the sink to have a seam only on one side. This means that the pieces were small and 36"-ish long and only supported on one side. We suggested an alternative method of support for the sink and having the seams on both sides of the sink. We also told this client that there was a good chance that the concrete could crack, and there was no way of forecasting where the crack would go. She wanted to chance it for aesthetic reasons...even though we lobbied against. Sure enough, the smaller of the two pieces cracked. We ended up hand cutting the counter with a diamond blade angle grinder (on site) and putting in the two seams. Although the client would have freaked with a crack, she still wasn't happy about the two seams. As one concrete reinforcement salesman and concrete countertop engineers have told me (and it makes sense), rebar/steel reinforcement doesn't always keep counters from cracking...it just holds them together once they do crack
Regardless, that client got an "industry discount" to begin with, and she still wasn't satisfied for a myriad of reasons. She has been our only dissatisfied customer to date.
Like I wrote in a discussion with Twisted...we at nFORMAL design personally LOVE lightly sealed concrete and the patina it takes on; however, we know that look isn't for everyone. We had another client want concrete counters for a bar we designed/built, and she wanted us to stain them to look "kind of like granite". I was flabbergasted. We did it, but the entire time I was thinking, "If you want it to look like granite, then why not just buy granite?"
Concrete...a wonderful material. I love it.
[houzz=
http://www.houzz.com/discussions/346684/Concrete-Countertops-FAQ-s-by-Twisted-Minds
Here is a great website that weighs all flooring options against each other, maybe this will help you decide on your favorite material - http://www.concretenetwork.com/staining-concrete/comparison.html
The concrete overlay products we use, creates zero dust. We mix the product outside, and make sure all cabinets and finished items are protected and masked. The concrete floor is a self leveling product that requires no grinding or polishing, so it produces zero dust. If you'd like white or grey concrete, we'd simply seal/wax the surface and you're set - this only takes 2-3 days including everything. If you'd like a colored concrete floor, we'd recommend a water based stain since it's indoors, non-toxic and dries quickly. This would add an additional day or two to the project. You can definitely still reside in the rest of the house, where we aren't pouring a concrete floor - it's totally non-toxic and is a safe a product.
All contractors should be making you a sample tile or a test area, so you can see exactly what to expect. For our clients, we will make them custom tiles with the exact products we plan to use on their project. All of the products we use are high quality specialized concrete products, none are available at retail outlets or in hardware stores - only trained artisans should be using these products to ensure the highest quality outcome.
Concrete is the same hardness and temperature as tile or natural stone. If you are worried about cushioning under your feet, we recommend throw rugs or gel mats where you plan to stand for long periods. But honestly, we've never had any complaints in this regard.
On blog also has tons of information on concrete floors and pros/cons - http://modeconcrete.blogspot.ca/
Hope this helps!
For Concrete polymer-modified overlays:
Contractors and manufacturers are split between roughening the concrete by mechanical profiling or acid etching.
Mechanical profiling is the method of choice.
Twisted and Mode.... Do I need to research and guess what method you are refering to or can you perhaps just spell it out so I understand. Either acid etch or mechanical grind? Is there something else? How are you prepping the surface with no dust as you claim?
Self-leveling overlays are less flexible after drying than microtoppings and spray-down systems, which can make them more prone to cracking
I agree with everything that Twisted Minds has said! Thanks Twisted Minds!!
The terms overlay, top-coat and skim-coat all basically mean 'concrete floor' to our clients - we will fine tune the products we use to the substrate we are pouring on. The definition you got from Concrete Network is accurate, but the materials we use are much more technically advanced - we make sure the concrete topping has polymers and flexible agents contained in the mix, we spare no expense and use the best products available to produce long term results that will last. If you are pouring your concrete on a wood substrate, you'll have lots more hairline cracking since the wood floor and frame of house is constantly flexing, moving, expanding/contracting - while pouring on concrete floors always produces less hairline cracks. These cracks that occur (if you're using a good concrete topping) are all termed 'beauty marks' and they aren't structural. It is part of the beauty and originality of your concrete floor. Because of concrete's unpredictable nature, DIY isn't recommended if you want quality results.
The products that we use, are usually only available at concrete specialty stores, and most concrete specialists keep their tricks of the trade and favorite sealers as their 'trademark secret'. We prepare the surface, various methods are used when preparing each specific job - sometimes we use a primer to ensure adhesion, other times mesh is necessary. The methods we use, typically don't require any grinding of the surface we are preparing, but the best way to assess your floor is to come check out the job in person.
If you are located in the Okanagan we'd be happy to come check out the floor in person, contact us at modeconcrete@shaw.ca - If you live in the Vancouver area (or anywhere in the world), we would be willing to travel to you, but the customer is responsible for covering all travelling expenses, which would increase your cost. The base price for our artisan created concrete floors cost 12-18/sq ft (price depends on thickness, sealers, stains). Another option, is our hand-cast large format tiles that can be shipped to you, and installed by any tile setter. Good luck with whatever you decide!
We found this site that compares all the prices of the flooring options - http://www.concretenetwork.com/concrete/polishing/comparison-chart.html
You also have a few options for concrete flooring which would determine the end price. You could have a overlay/top coat poured on your substrate, or large hand-cast custom made concrete tiles created, or smaller standardized concrete tiles available from most tile shops (cheapest option). Hope this helps!!
Finishing an existing concrete floor, where no topcoat of concrete is required, is much less money and requires less materials. The cheapest (and dustiest way) is to grind down the existing concrete and finish the surface, price depends entirely on the condition of your concrete. The price we mentioned (12-18/sq ft) will produce results like the attached pictures where we apply a thin level of concrete to the substrate, and is great for clients concerned about dust. Do small test ares to see what products produce the results, and look at houzz for design ideas! Usually our clients show us pictures so we know what look they are going for.
In regards to pricing... you usually get what you pay for, and getting the best deal or accepting the cheapest estimate, will probably not get you the best results or greatest longevity of the product. The difference in cost could be quality of materials, quality of workmanship, level of experience and quality of service. Again, make sure you do your research before weighing the possible options!
To be listed on the concrete network, you have to pay a fee since it's an advertised listing - we find it's a great 3rd party resource for any unanswered questions to help decisions but we don't personally advertise on there. If you are a brave DIY'er, or just curious about the processes, the concrete network provides tons of info.
We aren't able to discuss the various products we use, since the techniques and products are highly customized to exactly what you ask for or the look you're trying to achieve (and subject to test areas producing good results). We prefer a matte natural finish, while some people prefer a glossy wet look. A lot of the questions you are asking are personal preference and budget specific, good luck :)
Check out our blog, it features this project and a bunch of full size images that shows more detail of this floor - http://modeconcrete.blogspot.ca/2012/04/cool-modern-and-hip-concrete-floors.html
The picture on the left is standard grey with a natural finish, no stain was used. We were leveling out an uneven basement concrete floor, and applied concrete to the surface. This is our specialty and can usually do it on any substrate. The level of pigment, staining and combination of colors that can be applied to your concrete floor, is 100% dependent on the artisan's skill level. Anything is possible with concrete stains, maybe you should interview a few more contractors and see if they bring more skill or experience to your project :)