Kitchen drawing and layout
I would like to ask a question to anyone who can answer this. Is a diagram such as what you typically see that is a nonspecific blueprint type of black and white basic generic looking cabinets and appliances, the best a customer can expect to recieve from a kitchen designer when planning a new kitchen? Isnt there anyway in which a drawing can be made with the exact and actual door and cabinet style and countertop so I dont need to try to envision what it will look like. This would greatly help me decide. Why dont kitchen designers provide this and how can I get this done?
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As Barbara mentioned, there are software programs that can show you the exact door style. We've used 2020 and Cabinet Vision for this. The software can download specific manufacturers catalogs and display the exact door along the cabinets that are available in that line. (Semi custom). The software can also access different brands of appliances etc. Most good kitchen design companies will over this service if you pay a designer retainer as a deposit for the actual cabinetry.
However, if you're looking at custom made cabinetry, you'll need a different program such as AutoCad or Chief Architect to create the custom door profile.
Steve
What you're describing is very different to what the majority of cabinetry designers offer (especially places like HD and CTG). To help a client fill-in the visual blanks that a line drawing offers, physical samples of doors, countertop and backplash materials are typically used. (This is what I use on the majority of my projects) However, for my clients that would prefer to the see much more, I offer photo-realistic rendering. This is quite time consuming and therefore expensive, and would run around an additional $750 - $1500 for a kitchen with multiple views and the integration of specific tiles and other finishes etc, which I would be obtaining. (I've attached an example of PRR to show you how realistic it can look)
Btw, many good CAD programs CAN show projects in color rendering, (at no additional cost to the client) but I don't feel that they are very realistic. (20/20 and Cabinet Vision among others offer this). However, I tend to not show my clients this basic color rendering, because it can be distracting and misleading, as they just don't look that good imo. (Some may disagree)
If you want to see CAD drawings that are very realistic, you'll need to use an design build company, interior designer or architect that has the ability to create PRR for you. Alternatively, see if you can purchase the DWG or DXF files from the cabinetry showroom and have an rendering company create the plans for you.
Steve
Steve
Sorry I wasnt able to post this yesterday, turned out to be a very long day :) Here's an example color rendering from one of my projects, and a photo of the finished project. While the overall feel of the space is captured in the cad render, the colors are off. These could be tweaked of course, and I could add lights etc, but that all takes time. The majority of my clients are able to understand the design well enough without these renderings.
Regarding showrooms that offer this service, where do you live? I'm in Phoenix AZ, and there are a few places that can do this here.
Steve
http://www.ikeakitchendesignonline.com/from-ikdo-design-to-ikea-installation/
After you learn the software and input your specs you're probably looking at a good number of your hours invested in this.
I have no personal experience with the software. Just wanted to throw the idea out there. If anyone HAS used the software, I'd be interested to know how it works. I'm on a Mac so this was never an option for me.
http://www.homedesignersoftware.com/products/product-chooser.html
I'm hungry...need to go get lunch. Hope the ten bucks I have left for the rest of the week is enough.
Sad that this needed to be said, and that I chose to do it.
With all due respect, David @ Ironwood
I have no idea why you are insulting my intelligence or need for information when deciding how to spend my money. "the reason for my ire" idk what your problem is but maybe YOUR attitude towards potential clients has something to do with why you are starving and not getting rich. I unfortunately know many like you in my area who take out THEIR anger on homeowners or potential clients because they feel that they work too hard and people expect something for nothing. Yep unfortunately I have met way too many like you and boy do they turn me off to ever considering hiring them.
You look like you do nice work so why is it you only have 10 bux to make it through the week? I think plenty of the qualifies professionals on here are doing quite well financially.
I never attcked you or even asked for your help so best you refrain from speaking to me with your nasty comments.
I will speak to Mr Beautiful Remodel who seems to be a TRUE professional and a very kind person.
In answer to your question regarding the cost for the rendering I showed you (the second post, not the first) no, I do not charge extra for that work. However, once my clients and I begin the design & pricing phase of a project, there is a fee for that work, depending on the size and complexity of the project.
Without going into lots of detail here on Houzz as to exactly what clients receive for that service, I have never had a client that hasn't appreciated the enormous effort and time that goes into the process. On the contrary, I've had consistent feedback that they have considered the process a means by which to not only make their project look like it cost far more to complete than it did, but most importantly, to tailor it to their specific needs and lifestyle.
As far as whether the line-drawings you posted are typical from most cabinet stores, yes they are. Its a competitive business, so many cabinets stores do not feel its worth the additional cost in both labor and materials to create color renderings, especially when many clients do not request them. Color rendering software is expensive and takes a long time to learn.
Imo, the additional cost is very reasonable when you consider how much time and skill it takes to create them. One point to consider is that no matter what your budget is for a remodel, one of the most important investments you'll make is in a great design. Great design *never* happens by accident. It takes an enormous amount of work, time and skill that comes from many years of experience. Every project that you've admired on Houzz started with a great design, that took a long time to create.
Much in the same way a great accountant can save you far more in taxes than their fee was, great designers will not only make your project look like it cost more, function far better, but also help you avoid costly mistakes.
I hope this helps.
~ Steve
If kitchen design is easy, why pay a designer at all? You know it isn't easy and you admittedly can't translate the line drawings and door samples into a vivid, clear image in your mind of exactly what your new kitchen will look like. So, either accept that you are making a blind leap of faith or pay someone to translate the documents into a more understandable form.
If you want to buy new cabinets, you have a choice to either do your own design work and provide all the details necessary for an exact quote, or make a commitment and choose one firm and work with them to design a good kitchen for your needs. You know roughly what the cabinetry will cost - chasing down a lower price on the cabinets may increase your other costs. The reason places like Cabinets to Go are able to provide cheaper product is that they don't offer the services you desire.
as well, will show photos from portfolio for specific details. When it is evident a client is willing to proceed, more can be done. Whether the project is 10,000 or 100,000, we have the same policy. As much assistance to get the job done and facilitate the project. It really comes down to trust & confidence in the professionalism in the designer/fabricator you are working with.
Thank you - I'm pleased to hear that you like the SV kitchen, but I'm afraid it was many times more than your preferred budget. I'd suggest finding a local kitchen designer, not a big box store, so you can work with someone creative that can tailor the project design and details to your budget. You can use projects like the SV kitchen and other favorites of yours from Houzz to show them what you like.
I wish you the best with your project!
Steve
Otherwise, it sounds like you've figured out some solutions as to how best to mock it up and make sense of what you're seeing. Back in the dark days before 3D programs, I helped builders set up cardboard mockups of kitchen cabinet layouts in empty shells of kitchens. It can be scary when you're at your budget but sometimes you have to trust the professional you're working with and go for it.
Email me if you like ! one.plan@virgin.net
What you can expect from a cabinet designer often depends on a few things...the skill of the designer, the software they use which is provided by the company they work for, your budget, and the cabinets they offer which is also provided by the company they work for. Some manufacturers offer semi-custom cabinets. They have a specific line but offer changes at a premium. Other manufacturers only offer basic cabinets and that's all you can get from them, so that's all they can draw for you.
Yes I designed both cabinets and kitchens, and built them. If you want unique and if it fits your budget, I would suggest going to a cabinet maker. A cabinet maker can get a variety of woods that aren't offered by an your average cabinet manufacturer. In addition, you can have cabinets built that aren't offered by non-custom manufacturers. You can also go to an independent kitchen designer as the ones above who could give you a more realistic rendering.
But to address the open look you are talking about--First of all, I have to say this does look like a functional design and that is the most important thing. Without having your dimensions and cabinet door design (which tells me a lot about the look you are going for) and your choices in appliances, I would say that the glass doors overhead are costing you more and making giving it a shorter look. Perhaps instead you could put the money into a slide in range with a decorative hood overhead if the budget allowed. Give the hood more space. If your range is 30", give the hood 36". Put a decorative backsplash that goes up to the top of the cabinets. That will give the illusion of height and openness. That will make the cabinets on either side or the pantry less wide but will give you a more open feel. The pantry could be made to accommodate a built in microwave or if there is room or you could have a microwave drawer next to the sink if there is room there or you could put the microwave next to the refrigerator on the counter. You could also have open easy-reach shelving in the left corner or a full length cabinet or normal length cabinet on with a 45 deg angle and glass door that is lit inside to brighten up that corner--also making it look more open. Staying with one color on the top and bottom cabinets will make it feel larger. The more you break it up color-wise, the smaller it will feel. It's trendy right now to mix and match finishes, but forget the trends and go for what makes you happy. Having a drawer base somewhere would be nice also. Perhaps the designer put one beside the sink.
This forum is different of course than if you and I sat down and looked at pictures of kitchens and doors first so that I got a really good idea of your tastes and we talked about your budget for appliances and I knew what the space looked like around the picture shown above. Sometimes it's possible to open walls into other rooms and rearrange space to make things work. Not being able to see other walls and have dimensions makes it more of a challenge to give you more advise.
The colors that you see in renderings are not necessarily accurate. The rendering is essentially to give you an idea of the layout in its upright form. Choices of woods and colors are a separate issue.
1.As the homeowner, Define the existing space you intend to remodel. (or build) and include the adjacent spaces. By that I mean measure the existing area length x width and heights and put those dimensions on paper in the form of a PLAN VIEW. be sure to include the location of doors, windows, hallway, dining area ?, living area?, outdoors?, and all the existing appliances. (Later on you will find the need to add locations of electrical outlets, switches, ceiling lighting etc.. you get the idea.
2. As the homeowner you can easily do a rough drawing of your current "WALL ELEVATION" As you can see in sample attached, the elevation is a view straight on. with no perspective. This would become is a dimension drawing to a scale. From here you can measure the exact size of your cabinets,
3. Your selected designer /cabinet sales can develop a PERSPECTIVE with the style of doors usually incorporated.
4. It's important to start off with as much knowledge of your existing area so you can discuss changes you desire and what happens when you make those changes. For example; if you were to move the sink- that involves changing the plumbing... you get the idea.
So with your existing accurately measured and defined , now you can explore the changes and options you have available and get an idea of what those options are going to cost.
Hope that helps. ( I've been working with homeowners developing kitchen and bath designs for a "few" (20+ years) and not everyone on this site is trying to sell you their services. Stay with someone local, keep checking and ask friends who they have used. If you tour builders homes, realtor open houses you may find that "good builder" but also does remodeling ???
Excellent post by eagle above.
You need dimensions on your drawings so that you will know what type of cabinet or drawer can be installed in each space.
Remember also -- that drawers on lower cabinets are generally more functional than cabinets. For pots and pans, utilize pull-out drawers within the cabinet. Decide where everything goes before you go for a drawing.
You do have to use some imagination to transfer a flat drawing into a 3 dimensional cabinet. The colors are what matters and you can match colors with cabinet door, sample counter, and paint swatches.
The realities are that a photo realistic rendering takes time to come up with....even with a computer generated product and time in the design studio equals money. A good photo realistic rendering can take anywhere from a day to 2 days to create.....maybe longer if the designer actually has to create the components (i.e specific door styles and finishes) you want.
I understand what you're saying, but the realities are very few studios or dealers can afford to spend that kind of time on a gamble that you will go with them. What you're getting are schematic drawings because that's the phase you're in.....the schematic or preliminary phase. Once you decide on specific components and configuration, you can get development drawings where the look and fine details are more worked out. This is usually where you get a rendered perspective, but that is usually an extra cost........usually simple rendered elevations are adequate enough for most clients..........very rarely do I need to do a fully rendered photo realistic rendering for a client. Because quite frankly many just don't want to pay that extra fee........that's exactly how I got into this profession. I was hired many years ago by a large international Architectural / Engineering / Construction firm to do Architectural renderings and illustrations by hand.....something we did back before the computer's were brought into the office. A large full color rendering back then might cost the client $5-8k for a large commercial project and take a week to 2 weeks to complete. Now people not familiar with the process have a tendency to think that the perspectives can just be popped out of the computer in minutes......
The sad truth is designideas is that if you want a photo realistic rendered perspective of your kitchen design to make your decision it's going to take a day or two to get your information and input into the application to produce the finished the product. Even then it's going to take quite a bit of tweaking to get it just right (i.e. light forecasting, color balance, etc., etc.) and that someone is going to want to get paid for their effort.......the designer has overhead even if they do the work themselves, they've got bills to pay and food to put on their family table and two days of time spent on your project is two days time they can't spend on someone's else who is paying.
I'm sorry if this isn't what you want to hear, but it's the realities of our profession. Time is a valuable commodity and uncompensated time is lost money for us.......I dare say if us designers broke our fees down to an hourly wage, all the time you don't see us working, we could make just about what we would get paid at McDonald's ...........good design just doesn't pop up in a flash, It takes many hours of "what if" or "what would this look like" and quite often a pile of wadded up bum wad tissue around our chair before it starts clicking..........can I get a designer amen?
Here is their product line. They are local it turns out.
http://www.houzz.com/leicht
http://www.kitchenresourcedirect.com/particleboard-vs-plywood-cabinets
pros & cons ; http://www.ikeafans.com/home/particleboard-plywood-kitchen-cabinets/
Having experienced the "cons" of particle board, I would be cautious. (as I sit in front of my particle board desk with rippled surface caused by water damage. ) If you have not experienced build it yourself assembly furniture , ask a few friends.
Back to basics- please tell us what is there now ? It's hard to help when we do not know what you have and where you want to go ?
You need to decide what goes where in your kitchen. Keep what you like about your current layout; change what you don't like. You have to have a good idea of your needs before you work with somebody else on cabinets.
carrington................ I have ikea furniture which is particleboard so I understand. Its not perfect but has held up well for 10 years. The macys furniture i bought recently with plywood and veneers is much more scratched and may be constructed better by scratches easily.
Tarey................I only want to keep my refrig and micro that are new. I want good quality lower cost( not more than 15k) modern style cabinets. Thats my objective. If I have them built from scratch is that the best option for me? I dont know if i can get what i need size wise in that price. Do local cabinet makers build frameless modern slab doors and i assume its expensive to finish with veneer or paint or laquar. I dont have a huge budget. I am also a bit scared to pay to have someone build something without seeing how it looks first.
There are a lot of good designers out there - and some really great ones. There are also ones who don't have a great deal of creativity. I seem to have found a few of those. In my mind, I have some really specific things I want in my kitchen. The way it looks comes secondary for me. Form follows function ;-)
You're talented and artistic. Plus you've got a fabulous layout to work with. Sketch some things out. Look at pics. Do you like the look of floating shelves vs wall to wall upper cabinets? How easy/hard is it for you to get to the things you use on a daily basis now. Would drawers/shelves make that easier? Is the line drawing layout you've posted the kitchen layout of your dreams? Is there any way you can think of that your existing layout could be used to better advantage?
Don't depend on someone else to tell you what you like. Yes, you still need a designer - but I think you need to start first with at least an idea of what you want functionally.
The only thing I can think of is to move down the plumming and put more counter top near the refreig on that side of the island before the sink. I feel that area is cramped and limited for prep. I really feel that for a medium to large kitchen which the lowes designer said i have that I have very little counter space..its 45 sq feet but I dont like to use the area behind the sink and dishwasher... its the overhang and its facing the den. I dont really use the portion to the right of the stove its maybe 24 or 36 inches and I keep the phone there. I dont like the layout at all. So yeah what would you do? How much is it to move the water pipe or gas? As it is I dont even have 220 electric in there for a wall oven.
Has it been stressful? Yes.... but with such a small budget there are not too many options. To be honest.... I am glad it's taken this long. I understand kitchens so much better now and will end up with exactly what I wanted visually with a lot more functionality due to the thinking time I've had :)
Good luck with your kitchen!
Oh... BTW.... my friends all think I'm a crazy lady but I'm cool with that :)
The island shown in their drawing appears narrow ? Is there a wall there ? What rooms, doorways are existing adjacent ?
( " As cabinet color trends shift from orange-, red- or yellow-toned browns to a more versatile brown, new glazes and finishes from Diamond Cabinets yield a softer palette. Among the new glazes is Grey Stone Glaze, available on three distinct white-tone paints - Pearl, Dover and Coconut. " ) link:http://www.forresidentialpros.com/product/10712845/diamond-cabinetry-grey-stone-glaze-kitchen-cabinets
Also,
Here's a link to Kit & Bath and Residential Pro magazine where they offer a Product info directory. There are several suppliers offering pull out drawers as conversion kits to fit existing base cabinets which may be worth investigating as part of your solution.
Poggenpohl has introduced a new collection of drawer and pull-out designs. Featuring an integrated LED lighting system, the collection can be retrofit to virtually any kitchen. The 8 mm aluminum drawer sides are currently the thinnest on the market, according to the company. New drawer inserts are available in walnut or maple wood.
http://www.forresidentialpros.com/product/10224273/poggenpohl-new-drawers-pull-outs
Interesting info for those who care to read.
Thank you carrington... I will have to figure out how to contact these builders. I do think thats a great idea. Since all the top builders are around me here and putting in new homes there must be a way to get a hold of someone who can help. My last experience with the man who worked doing just that did not end well. He got my hopes set on new cabinets from his company and them never gave me a design or contract and as I continued over 10 weeks totry to get anything done all he said was that theywere too busy with new homes and employee orders come last. I dont know if he was just full of it or what. So when I did get referrred to a local distributor from the builder the price quote was double and they said his estimate was not possible...he said he would install the cabinets at 25 bux a box. Plus the cabinets alone were much more than he said. I am used to men lying to me but it really pisses me off. This is part of the challenge of being a single woman and trying to get this all done myself.
I paid $380 for the paint for the doors and got the same color the new Landcruiser Sahara is painted in over here. It's a pearl white (very nice)... My neighbor is a mechanic and spray painter so he did the job for me over 3 weeks and I paid him in beer :)
2-pak is a paint that sprays on and dries as hard as the paint on your car. Some guys use 2-pak in tins to touch up cars or paint motorcycles etc... In Australia 2-pak doors are high end. Only thing more expensive is solid timber, mahogany etc... google 2 pak kitchen doors and you'll see them.
Another tip.... I found out who imports the Blum range here. Called them, registered for a trade account and am buying all Blum fittings as I can afford to. The difference in price for the panty was $400! - just on the drawers!
I won't take photos yet as I pulled up the slate flooring a month ago and just have a really terrible thinset floor now which needs to be grinded back :( The slate was gorgeous but so uneven it broke the wheels off my refrigerator so it had to go.
Obviously I wish I had of done the floor BEFORE I installed the cabinets! We live and learn :)
If you'd like me to write a list of what I did to get to where I am let me know. I'll do that and post it here. It is a RIDICULOUS amount of research and time but as I've always said... some people have a lot of time, some have a lot of money, very few have them in equal amounts. If you have more time than money this is the way to go :)
I was painting a table today and wondering if its worth the time or I should just buy a new one.Part of me things it may not turn out good and it will look cheap and part of me says if I could learn to do it well it might look really good. But then I think that nothing looks as good as a table that is bought and made professionally. I guess I dont have much confidence in my ability.
I found a place that takes the ikea boxes and makes unique doors in any material or style to fit the box. Its interesting the things people do.
If I wanted to get a great paint finish or a laquar finish on this table I have do I need to find someone who applies car spray paint or just a painter who sprays 2-pak. I want to try to do it myself but I guess I am just worried I will have a mess to clean up and it wont come out well. These men charge so much for something I think doesnt take that long to do and isnt that hard.
I get so many conflicting ideas on how to use the sprayer. I bought one and was ready to do it but when you ask advice from a painter they try to get you to beleive it takes a $500 sprayer and 10 yrs experience to do it right. I just wish people expected a fair price for what they offer and I would have no problem paying.
Like having to pay 120 for a minor electrical repair that I am sure I could even do if I was able to get in the attic and put some wires in a junction box. This is why for me I need people who work for what I consider a fair price.
BTW no kitchen designers have asked me to pay to have them do a design except on here. Thw ones I am contacting who work for or own showrooms are doing it free initially.
www.waltzcraft.com if you want to take a look. They'll even drill the cup hole for Blum hinges for you.
I used the same cabinetmaker to cut my doors to size and round off the edges, however, my budget didn't allow to have the profile cut in at the same time so I took them to a local handyman that I know has a router & he did the profile cutting for me using his router.
The doors came with the cup holes for the hardware I wanted which was great and the HMR board they used has a white layer on the inside to stop any warping when painting the outside of the door (if using water based paint).
Great doors on that site BTW :)
LOVE IT ! that's a comment I can relate with. Go ahead and take pictures during remodel befores and during. you will want them later ( and we won't make fun of your floor") :)