SFGate

Lehman Wood Products Ltd. Your cabinet maker is correct on MDF, but as a custom cabinetmaker, we will paint wood doors if that is what the customer wants. If a client insists on wood, we usually try to steer them towards a shaker v-groove door (with the v-groove on the frame at the vertical joint) or to a mitred door. The mitred doors are constructed differently so they do not expand and contact as easily and therefore you do not get the paint cracking to the same degree. However, you will be spending quite a bit more money for a wood mitred door than you would for MDF.

As far as the plasticky look of the finish, it sounds like the lacquer is high-gloss. There are degrees of sheen for lacquer and you can go as low as 10 per cent sheen. That might cut down on the plastic look.

If you want wood, why not go with a stain finish?

As far as the quality of MDF, they have come a long way with MDF, so the style and quality is quite good. We get very few call backs on MDF kitchens.

Good Luck!

larawin Thank you! I actually am now considering a very light stained wood. Since I was so set on my white kitchen (and everything I've chosen has centered around that) I am not even fully aware of what kind of options are available for stains. Our kitchen is pretty dark, and I just love the modern farmhouse look, and I just like really light creamy color palettes in general. I am not opposed to natural wood, i just haven't come across any kitchens with that have really stuck out to me like the painted ones do.

I will definitely ask them about the sheen factor. It really isn't super shiny. But when I run my hand across it, it is just so smooth and doesn't feel believable to me, if that makes sense. (Kind of reminds me of a bookshelf made in china that I bought from target and assembled myself for my son's bedroom)...not exactly what I envisioned using in my custom dream kitchen!

It's great to hear that you haven't had any call backs on MDF kitchens. Can you comment on whether or not it is a big turn off for most homebuyers or if it is considered by most a "cheap" material (in quality, not in price)? We aren't selling our home anytime soon, but I'm trying to make choices that will increase our home's value in the long run during these renovations, and not make any "trendy" choices that I may regret later. Or am I thinking too hard on this particular detail?

Susan Corry Design Just wanted to weight in on the MDF discussion: I used to design high end kitchens for a German cabinetry company, and they often used MDF in certain applications. It doesn't warp because it's more dimensionally stable, and as Lehman Wood Products said, MDF has come a long way. There are varying levels of quality, so MDF no longer equates with cheap, assemble-it-yourself furniture. Another advantage to consider: it's more environmentally friendly (as long as it doesn't have formaldehyde in it). As for resale value, I'm guessing the answer lies partly in where you live. Cities where people are environmentally conscious may find the MDF more favorable than wood, but residents of smaller towns in more remote areas may prefer wood. Hope this helps!

Lehman Wood Products Ltd. Another alternative, if you like a painted finish is to do a painted perimetre and a stained wood island, if you are doing an island. Our door suppliers can match the door style for both the MDF product and the 5 piece wood door.

Regarding the finish on the sample door.... Is it paint (or lacquer) or is it vinyl coated (thermofoil)? Themofoil is a plastic type overlay on MDF doors and is definitely different finish- wise than paint or lacquer.

I have attached pics of a painted w/stained island and a light maple kitchen

julie77777 I've been looking into this issue recently and am very impressed with what I'm seeing regarding the MDF doors "shrink-wrapped" in the Thermofoil. Looked at some tonight right along with some maple and poplar stained doors. Would love to hear more from people who have had Thermofoil covered doors for a while .... I am hearing they hold up very well in the long term (15+ yrs).

Nava Slavin Everybody has spelled out all the good & bad points of MDF & wood. However...the look of MDF is plastic like as you felt. It is more appropriate for a laundry room or a low end kitchen. A client who knows quality will not buy an MDF door.
The compromise is a wood frame with an MDF center panel which gives more stability, with a wood look due to the wood painted frame.
Having said that, A high gloss lacquer is usually done on a flat panel MDF door since the finish is implacable.
Best of luck

Lehman Wood Products Ltd. @ Julie...... Thermofoil is another product that has come a long way, however it is only as good as who is producing it. Low end thermofoil companies can produce a product that is cost effective, and looks good for the short term, but can start to peel a few years down the road. If you were going to use thermofoil I would suggest that you look into the warranty on it and investigate that the door company stands behind their warranty. I agree that in some cases it is hard to tell the difference between a wood finish and thermofoil.

As far as MDF, the advantage to it is that it is a one piece door and accordingly you do not get cracking in the painted finish as there are no joints as there are in wood doors. We use a flat sheen lacquer to get away from the plasticky look and they are good quality doors that do not look "low end"

wyndyacre Both my Mom and a friend have kitchens with Thermofoil cupboards of 15+ years old...they both look brand new with no peeling, burns, stains etc. I am in the process of gutting my tiny 40 year old kitchen and having white Shaker style Thermofoil installed myself.

Hdmcrafts Using solid wood materials sometimes is not a great option because if humidity composition is more 10 degrees wood will be cracked or shrunk. Especially it is on drier condition or status though solid wood actually is more beautiful. Plywood with anti-fire is better in my opnions

larawin I should add too, that my mom has thermafoil in her white kitchen. She lives in a high end neighborhood, which surprised me that she has such cheap cabinets. It was built in '93, so that is probably why since I keep reading that all these materials have come a long way since then. But, anyway, her cabinets, especially those near her sink and dishwasher, have been peeling for awhile. She is an extremely clean neat freak and works really hard to keep her stuff nice, so I know it's not from her beating them up. So when she heard I was possibly doing MDF, she got the two confused and told me to stay away from it. From everything I've read and heard, in terms of man-made product, thermafoil is definitely what gives the plastic look. (Only regurgitating my research). I don't know this to be a fact, other than my experience with my mom's kitchen. And to be honest, I never paid enough attention to her cabinets before to notice. However, since MDF and thermafoil are in a similar category (I.e....not real wood!) I am still so nervous about MDF having the same issues of peeling. But I have also read that good cabinet companies put special water resistant paint on MDF and enough layers that it actually protects it more.

What is the common warranty that most cabinets come with? How about for custom cabinet makers? I am meeting with ours again next week and mean to ask them about theirs...think it would be good to have some background knowledge of it first to make sure their policy is legit. Thanks for all the feedback everyone, please keep it coming!

feeny Personally, I would not use MDF on the lower cabinets or near the sink, as they are vulnerable to water damage. The custom cabinetmakers we employed for our kitchen renovation did not use MDF products. The top of the line they offered was thick plywood cabinet boxes with solid wood doors, and solid wood dovetailed drawers throughout. This is a more expensive option, but excellent quality and very durable over the long haul.

larawin @lehman wood...to answer your questions from previous, the custom cabinets in MDF that I'm looking at are not thermafoil. I specifically asked them and they said they absolutely don't use thermafoil. The sample door I have right now is actually one they cut in half so that the client can see what's on the inside. It's also not the style I've chosen...they are making me my own samples of the shaker door I have chosen to be picked up next week. This could make all the difference in what I'm seeing on the finish (the one I have now has a lot of beveling in it and no glaze, which I think might lend more towards that fake look I'm seeing). Once I get my full plain shaker door in hand, I'm hoping that I will feel more comfortable with the finish and overall look. I guess when I say plastic, it is not like true cheap particle board feel...but I have a lot of painted antiques in my home that have just a certain warmth to them when I run my hands across them. It's like the paint has soaked into the grain as opposed to just sitting on top of it. With the MDF doors, I suppose what I'm feeling is why they are so well liked for painted doors....it's all a big smooth layer of paint. Not a bad thing when it comes to cabinetry, because the uniform look is what I want in my cabinets...but the uncomfortable "plastic feel" I think is coming from my familiar comfort zone of my painted furniture around my home. It also doesn't help that MDF is SO darn heavy! Holding that heavy piece definitely lends to my mind thinking (this is fake a cheap) as I'm looking at the cross section of the door. But...in the end, I know they will look great overall, I just have to get it in my mind somehow that it MDF is ok and my money is still being well spent. (Sorry for the rambling! This has been my hardest decision yet! Even harder than changing the color of my house!)

larawin @feeny...are yours painted? I definitely have all those options if I don't go with painted cabinets. Also, only my doors and drawer fronts would be MDF. The boxes and drawers are all high grade plywood with this cabinet maker as well.

feeny Yes, mine are ivory painted Shaker style cabinets.

Lehman Wood Products Ltd. Any finish near water (i.e. sink area, bath tub panel) is vulnerable to water damage. It is the finish (paint or lacquer) that gets damaged, and really has little to do with the material underneath. If a customer were to overflow their sink, the lacquer 'could' start to peel, whether it was on wood or MDF. Depending on the stove/oven specifications we will install a metal heat shield between the cabinets and the oven.

apple_pie_order Can you get paint grade wood cabinets from your custom cabinet maker and then have someone else paint them after they are installed?

sowy700 Wood

lewis + smith It is unclear why the cabinet shop is so afraid to paint a wood shaker style door. Most of the painted wood shaker style doors we have made have been Poplar which machines well and paints well. Personally, I don't really care for painted cabinets, and we actually charge more for them. It sounds like the shop you have chosen would prefer to work with wood and clear finish, which ultimately will give you a nicer product. As far as maintenance, or changing the color-eitherr wood or mdf can be repaired or resprayed. On the other hand, the thermofoil cabinets are not easily modified or repaired.

And thanks for using a local cabinet shop. It is difficult to compete with Ikea and the box stores, but your project will be nicer and more connected to the community which you live.

feeny Here's a quote from a lengthy (and mostly positive) analysis of the pros and cons of MDF and particleboard from American Woodworkers website:

"Wet basement or garage floors wreak havoc with MDF and particleboard. The fibers in both woods soak up water and expand like a sponge. However, when the material dries out, it doesn’t shrink back. Instead, tiny cracks develop, weakening the wood. If this piece is moved, the bottom edge will crumble."

http://americanwoodworker.com/blogs/shop/archive/2009/02/18/mdf-and-particleboard.aspx

Almost every other discussion I've seen of MDF (by professionals and non-professionals on Houzz, on websites discussing cabinetry, etc.) raises this same issue--that if water gets through the lacquered finish, the MDF fibers expand like a sponge. Yes, wood can also be damaged by water, but my understanding is that it doesn't permanently expand in the same way.

calikym Common sense approach to the answer...look at bathrooms and kitchens all around you. What are they made of? My grandmas cabinets still look great after 70 years! Also, I have been told by a woman with cancer that one of the possible cancer culprits is MDF and any "fake wood" that is mainly made of glue. But these are things you learn after you have get sick. Bottom line, I'm using wood, real wood, everywhere. My kitchen was installed in 2007 and I've seen no shrinking or warping or anything like that. I used my own common sense. Can go imagine an MDF cabinet becoming an antique piece with any value example? Bottom line - I have old wood and new wood all over my house, from antiques to new kitchen and bathroom. I have my Grandmas old baby high chair and many other old wooden pieces in my home. They have withstood the test of time. You just can't say that about MDF, although many people during my project tried to convince me to use "fake wood".

eagledzines I owned a custom cabinet shop and I would make unfinished cabinets for someone if they asked for it.

I have been retired for a few years so I would very much like to know how MDF has improved. .(BTW-- MDF means medium density fiberboard. It is actually wood fibers that are bound together in a resin. It is the resin that makes it hard. If the resin breaks down, it falls apart. Also, thermofoil is a shrink wrap around MDF.)

The pros of MDF is that is doesn't not shrink and it is harder. The material is cheaper to manufacture cabinets from. Whether or not that savings in cost is passed on to you, depends on the cabinetmaker. If it is used on the inside panel of a door, it will not shrink.

The cons of MDF are that if you ever decide you want real wood, you can't strip it. The shelves WILL eventually bend. If because of cost, you decide to go with MDF anyway, make sure you periodically turn the shelves upside down to offset this sagging. If you do decide on an MDF face frame, make sure you get plywood shelves, laminated to match the interior or if the interior is natural lacquer then stay with that for the shelves. The MDF I am familiar with is harder than wood but absorbs water faster. As was stated, the finish sits on top of the material and doesn't sink into the wood. While it's true that water damage can seep into wood as well as MDF, I have heard of too many more ruined cabinets that were MDF than wood. It is, in my opinion, more quickly damaged. Part of the reason for that is that the finish sits on top and doesn't become part of the wood.

The pros of wood are of course, the feel and look of wood. Also, if this is a kitchen you want to keep for a very long time, I would go with wood. Trends in cabinetry are constantly changing. With wood you can strip it later if you decide you want a different finish down the road. If you have a solidly built set of cabinets, you can change the look and they will still be valuable later. With wood, the finish itself is impregnated in the wood helping it to resist stains and water.

Keep in mind too, that if you have cabinets with a face frame, the backs of the frames are not usually finished. This leaves MDF exposed on the back and unfinished. Wood beats MDF as far as holding up to moisture. If you do decide to go with MDF I would suggest a European cabinet with no face frame.

The cons of wood is that center panel on a door may shrink leaving an exposed finish line. I always gave my customers a touch up kit in case that happened. Not one ever came back to me with a problem.

My experience with mitered doors has been the opposite. They don’t hold up as well to changes in temperature and separate more easily. I’ve had some sitting around the shop for a while in storage areas as well as stick and rails, and have problems with the mitered coming apart. The mitered are more expensive as well. If you go with a mitered door, make sure there is a tenon at the joint and it is pinned to give it extra support.

Thermofoil doors come either as a one-piece door with a router making all the design or they can be made as a five-piece door. In my opinion, the one-piece doors look fake (because they are).

eagledzines One more thought. If you decide to go with painted wood and not stained or natural make sure you tell the cabinet maker that you don't want to go with a paint grade wood. Paint grade wood will be just as solid but will have darker and lighter patches of color. It won't have a clear consistent color. Ask to see samples of different SPECIES and GRADES of wood that he could offer. There are usually several different grades, so that you could find something within your budget that is stainable later. Then if you strip them later you won't be surprised to find that they don't look good stained or natural..

larawin Wow...lots of GREAT feedback! Thank you all...could I get a quick vocab lesson?

Mitered doors? Please explain. Is this the way that the shaker slats hook together?

Paint grade wood. (Do all wood species come in "paint grade" versions? And if I get a non paint grade wood, is it still paintable?). I would assume, yes...but learning to make no assumptions in this process. I was thinking of getting a light stained maple cabinet. And on that note...is there such think as a milk stain on light wood that would give it almost a lightly glazed look where you could still see the grain but it leans towards creamy overall?

Face frame and European cabinets? All I know is I've been looking at full overlay doors. Other than that I have no idea what the difference between face frame and frameless (another term I've come across on other threads)

I am sure there are some terms I'm leaving out.

After many of your postings, I'm really leaning back towards real wood. I don't care if it costs a little more. But now I'm just going to have to find photos of examples of real wood that goes well with the styles of my kitchen I've chosen.... If anyone has some design advice, here are my selections so far:

Bianco Romano granite (very light grey and cream color with specks of garnet throughout)
White fireclay farmhouse sink
Grazia rixi subway tile in mandorla (crackle tile in off white with the slightest hint of gray blue tint)
Our breakfast bar/peninsula will be a richly stained tiger oak (this is my biggest concern going with the natural wood because of the potential clash) it will be about 9' x 3', so it was really going to pop against the cream cabinets.
We are also installing hardwood floors, medium stain
Due to the design layout, we are cutting back from two kitchen windows to one, in an already dark kitchen...however, one wall is getting opened up into another room that should provide more light. But my hatred for my old dark kitchen was another reason I was going for the more airy light painted feel instead of being overtaken by wood in every direction.

Design advice MUCH appreciated! I really do not want to change out my selections...the more I change, the further I get from my original dream kitchen.

Also, someone suggested having them make the cabinets and then painting after. I've read that with shaker style, it's best to have them painted before assembly because shifting panels with humidity, etc, will cause unfinished wood to show...but as someone just mentioned, I guess all that would need is a little touch up. Thanks all!

eagledzines Here is a picture of a mitered corner. The blue line shows where the top and side of the cabinet come together.

No not all woods come in paint grade. Here is a site where you can see the different grades of Maple and investigate other woods.
http://walzcraft.com/resources/wood-species/?wood-species=5244&grade=-1&compare=

A European cabinet which has a FULL overlay door has no wood showing around the doors. A face framed cabinet has a frame around it and can have an overlay or and inset door. The picture below might help to clarify.

eagledzines Here is a collage of your selections so far (did I get it right?)
Bianco Romano Granite-Canada Granite Tiles,Slabs
10 Easy Pieces: White Kitchen Farmhouse Sinks : Remodelista
Do the decisions ever end? Backsplash? - Kitchens Forum - GardenWeb
Tiger Oak - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum


Also, here is a picture that I found by googling but I could not find it when I went to their site. This would go with your tiger maple but I don't know if it's the style you ar looking for.
http://www.cpandwcabinetdoors.com/furniture-cabinet-doors_5018_ct.aspx

R J Hoppe Inc I do not understand why your company says it can not paint solid wood. Look at my portfolio. If I refused to paint solid wood I wood be out of business. As always it is in the prep work and the final product one "paints" onto the wood members. What I do refuse is to use a water based product. We have found that converting all colors into lacquer based products works very well. It also keeps the maintenance of our spray equipment to a minimum.

I can make you an MDF raised panel door and a solid wood raised panel door, paint both and you would not be able to tell the difference.

When it comes to the "carcass" of the cabinetry, no one make a cabinet out of solid wood. All cabinets are made for sheet products that have a core. In the case of MDF in can be clad with a veneer or a melamine or remain raw and painted. The cores can also be plywood or veneer core, particle core or lumber core.

As far as resale I can't comment on that. If one paints a kitchen a particular solid color and the doors of that kitchen are MDF rather then solid wood does that negatively effect the resale cost of the entire kitchen, I don't know. I wood assume that a kitchen that has a stained and lacquered finish to it would appear to be more costly then a painted kitchen but in actuality, from a manufacturing point of view, their is very little labor difference between producing the two.

In the end you have to live with it do you like the look of a solid color kitchen over a stained and lacquered one?

Hope this helps.

teeooh Wow -

I have been asking the same question. We are in the final planning stages for our kitchen. We are going to get full inset doors with beadboard panels. We went to visit the cabinet maker in his shop last week before we made our final finish selection. I have really wanted white - and wanted beadboard.

I was very suprised that he said that the door would be MDF is we went with painted. He said that over time the expansion and contraction of wood would cause the paint to crack on the door otherwise.

It also seems that the beadboard will be MDF eitherway.

BTW - getting painted cabiniets is more exspensive - even with MDF.

I spent the last week trying to process this information - afterall we are spending a pretty penny for these cabinets and MDF just sounds cheap.

julie77777 All very good info above!

larawin Yes it is! I told my contractor today that I am definitely going with real wood, whether painted, stained or whatever. That's all I know for now. Now we are on the hunt for a custom cabinet maker in our area with a good reputation who will paint wood! I'm sure they exist somewhere...it is just going to take a little more work. I'll be SO happy when this part is over. But I do feel so much better already that I'm putting my foot down against MDF and am definitely getting my authentic real wood cabinets one way or another. Thank you everyone for all of your experience and input! Every single post was very constructive and informative, and ultimately helped me make some great mental progress. ;)

julie77777 Helpful to me as well as I am needing new cabinet doors and am looking at either re-facing or painting the boxes.... Would prefer stained but will probably go with all painted -- because I know that trying to completely sand down the stained wooden frames would be extremely time-consuming and difficult. And paying for the re-facing of the frames/boxes is expensive -- and I'm just not so sure about the products they use for re-facing to look like stained cabinets .....?? (Very much dislike the current stain.)

eagledzines Here is an article about sandblasting instead of sanding. I have never tried it so can't vouch for it but it looks interesting. I have a chair I'm going to try it on.

http://www.ehow.com/how_7477072_sand-blast-wood.html