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wmpj Here are more pictures

olldroo wmpj - check your local ordinances. I have just had two bathrooms totally renovated due to leaking showers and water damage as when the bathrooms were originally built waterproofing wasn't compulsory. The requirement here is that shower walls are to be waterproofed to 150mm above shower floor substrate, or 25mm above maximum retained water level. Shower walls are to be water resistant to 1800mm from finished floor level.

I'm assuming your Durock is a water resistant product as our Villaboard is, and my builder completely waterproofed up to the join, which I was very happy with. Any leakage should be at joins and he has amply covered this with 2 layers of waterproofing. Quite frankly I think my guy has done a far more professional job, he painted it on as meticulously as a coat of paint. Yours does look very basic.

If what he has done meets local ordinances then probably he would require additional payment for any extra waterproofing. It would be money well spent for peace of mind as you rarely find out about leaks until too late and will save you money in the future.

wmpj Thank you olldroo. Your advice is very helpful.

Mary Dancey Interiors wmpj call around to your local plumbing stores and ask. If what your contractor has done is acceptable to the building codes or local standards it doesn't mean that you can't ask him to put the Redgard on to 'your' standards and comfort level. Don't ever feel guilty about questioning a trades work they are working for you. Gain as much knowledge as you can today because knowledge is power and open communication is key to the completion of a successful project. Be prepared to pay extra and a delay in the project for the application of the Redgard.

Here is a link to a discussion I found on the application of Redgard that you may find interesting. www.ridgidforum.com/forum/t28119/

olldroo My motto -
MY home
MY money
I say
YOU do.

wmpj Thank you Marcy. I do feel somewhat guilty questioning them. The reason why we are redoing our shower is because it was leaking. I certaintly don't want to have to redo it again.

Mary Dancey Interiors Pack your guilt away and save it for your kids. :) Trust your instincts.

S. Thomas Kutch Wmpj..... sorry, but your contractor is taking short cuts and sloppily at that. I see a number of questionable items in your photos. 1.) The durorock seams and corners should all be sealed with thin-set and alkaline resistant mesh tape. 2.) If Regard is going to be used on the walls and other surfaces it should be a complete coverage from top to bottom. Starting in the corners, then the seam, then the over all surface. It should be a minimum of 2 coast, the first being applied in a vertical direction, the second being applied after the first has completely changed color (cured) in the opposite direction. 3.) It looks like he's using a pre-mixed thin-set for the tile (it's hard to tell), but if he is using pre-mixed, this is the wrong method. Most pre-mixes will have a warning not to use over a liquid membrane, as the additives they include to extend the shelf life of the product won't evaporate properly allowing the setting materials to cure properly.........site mixed thin-set is not a problem. 4.) His Redgard coating is pretty skimpy at best........you can see the screw heads on the curb block, plus the joints at the curb and the jamb have lousy coverage........

Not to mention, he's a sloppy worker.... I doubt he'll take the time to clean all his droppings and dirt that he's tracked in on the floor of the shower.........Redgard is a dirt, debris magnet and he should have put something down to protect the floor surface.

In short, it's not done right and your tile contractor is short changing you to maximize his profits..... Redgard runs about $48-50 per gallon and he's counting on that once he slaps the tile on there, you'll be happy with the finished look, totally oblivious that what's hidden behind the tile is sub-standard and problems just waiting to happen.....not if, but when.

If he was one of my subs, we would be having a "come to Jesus" face to face before he laid a single tile more and all that tile would be coming down or he would be packing his stuff and leaving the site.

olldroo wmpj - I wish I could find the photo of my bathroom being done so I could show you just how sloppy your job looks.

Please take in all STK's comment - he really knows what he is talking about, don a suit of armour and let the Contractor have it on Monday. This is really vital work.

wmpj Thank you so much S. Thomas Kutch. I thought he was doing it wrong but I wasn't sure. I will have a talk with the General Contractor before anymore work begins on the tile. This is so frustrating. You think you hire the right people to do the job and you should be able to trust that they will do it correctly.

wmpj Here are a few more pictures

wmpj And another

Norm Walters Construction Inc. The biggest problem is price points. Minimum code dictates a 40 mil shower pan liner and a preslope under it, not much more. Waterproofing materials are now being used by remodeling contractors that specialize in bathrooms, rather than tile contractors that do new construction where the price point on tract housing is low.

The contractors that remove problem showers on a regular basis see what caused the damage and know how to build a shower that will last. Waterproofing membranes be they liquid or sheet type will make a shower last until you get tired of the tile color.

It has been my experience that most inexperienced tile setter's don't know how to deal with the inside of the curb, you can't just screw cement board to it and penetrate the shower pan liner, but I see it on 80% of the showers I remove, some within five years.

S. Thomas Kutch Wmpj it is frustrating..... and I'm surprised and yet not surprised that the GC put up with this........again, it boils down to prices like Norm said. Unfortunately, there are many indicators on your project that this contractor is not all that experienced or cut his price so low to the GC that now he's cutting corners......probably both.

But, with that said.......to be fair, I wonder just how detailed your plans were? This is why I preach to any home owners who have a renovation project in mind that they are going bid out, either to a GC or to owner contracted subs to get a detailed set of plans........the more information that is included in the drawings the better your chances are of getting what your want.

The home owner that goes into a project with a simple set of permit drawings is leaving everything to the contractor's decision making process and there in lies the unavoidable conflict. Would you walk into a car dealership and simply tell the salesman, I want to buy a car and expect him to meet your every need? Well, when the contractor is working from only a floor plan, it's basically the same scenario. If you want a Cadillac, you have to ask for a Cadillac...........specifics are the keys.

Don't get me wrong Wmpj, I'm not laying the blame on you or the contractor.....although in this case, the contractor is falling way short of even the most basic steps he should have taken......it's the system that our industry has become and everybody is taking short cuts to get the most bang for the buck and the bottom line figure. Quite often all these conditions will come together in the perfect storm and bang.......we get what you've got now.

lauriaj HAVE THEM FIX IT NOW!!!!! Before it's a MAJOR headache to fix!! We tore out our shower & corner tub because it appeared water was going behind our tile AND we realized there wasn't a vapor barrior on our exterior wall. So because of water issues, we remodeled our bathroom to our dream bathroom. We started in the middle of October and were finally done in December. In the beginning of January, water was pouring through the pendent lights in the ceiling below! We had some problems with the top pieces of Silestone tile "lifting" and cracking open the grout line on our shower bench. Before the major water leak, we had our tile guy out and he reset the top tiles of the bench and grouted with epoxy. When he replaced everything, including the curb tiles, the curb tiles were pitched out and the water poured out the shower. A couple days after our leak, we discovered it was even worse than we thought, our master closet floor was SOAKING wet (share a wall with the master bath). The walls in the closet were torn out to check the plumbing (in that short time there was mildew on the back of the drywall) and we have a large hole now to check inside the kitchen ceiling. Our plumbing was perfect (thank goodness, our plumber is a good friend!). We ended up tearing out the lower 1/3 of our shower (beneath our lower tile border). We had someone else do it, and a LOT of the problems that caused our demise are exactly what you seem to have! Our durock was not taped & thin-setted- instead redguard was used in the seams- looks exactly like what you have going on! Water got into our bench to the wood frame which swelled the wood and cracked open the grout. Water then went through there and spread to other places. The membrane only came partially up the front of the bench, so some water went in the membrane and some bypassed it. After a month of not using the shower waiting for everything to dry out, there was still standing water inside the membrane since there was not a pre-slope below the membrane. The redguard was very used very sparingly. Hopefully our new tile guy did everything right. We've been using the shower now again for a week. Below is a picture of the shower BEFORE the major leak, it pretty much looks the same now. But MAN, that was a major headache. Had to repurchase all the tiles, the shower floor has in-floor heat and we were worried about destroying the cable during demo which would have destroyed the system for the rest of the bathroom. Just please, fix it NOW!

Norm Walters Construction Inc. Honestly, showers are being built without any waterproofing, I would say at least 80% of them in my neck of the woods. I waterproof all of mine, and I do loose alot of jobs because it does cost more in time and materials For some the price is all that matters, and when you tell them how you do a better job than most, they think you are a fast talking salesman. Not all consumers are like this, but it is becoming a trend.

lauriaj Funny thing is I told our original tile guy I don't mind spending more money on the materials to make sure it's VERY water-proof. We paid for ALL materials out of our pocket, so all he'd be out is his time which I also wouldn't have minded compensating him for to have it done correctly.

Norm Walters Construction Inc. lauriaj, that's why acting as your own general contractor is not always the best idea. Having been there, done that, making mistakes along the way, Paying for them, knowldege is gained. Now that you have more experience with bathrooms I'm sure you could tell folks a thing or two. And we are only talking about bathrooms here, not the majority of problems that can and do occur when remodeling other parts of a house.

wmpj Lauriaj - I am sorry to hear about what you went through. What a mess and headache. I've been stewing all weekend about my shower and I am ready to have a discussion with the contractor in the morning. I am not going to let them work on my shower unless it is done right or I will just hire someone else to do it. I've already lost my confidence in the tile subcontractor. I did have a moment where I wasn't quite sure if what he was doing was correct and I was just going to let him finish but, it would be a bigger ordeal to fix if there was any leaking.

I thank everyone here for your advice because now I'm sure the shower is being done incorrectly and you've given my the confidence to speak up about it to the contractor.

Norm Walters Construction Inc. wmpj, if your contract doesn't specify exactly how it was going to be done, and waterproofing isn't required in your area, you may have a problem.

wmpj Thanks Norm Walters Const. My contract doesn't state it and I don't know what's required here in Georgia (United States) but there is a right way and a wrong way to do things. Do you know how I can find out what is required in my area?

Mary Dancey Interiors Google your local building permit office to see if they have the building codes listed on-line. If not give them a call in the morning and ask the permit office. Do you have a permit for this job?

Norm Walters Construction Inc. It actually falls under plumbing codes, check with your local building department. Right and wrong way is a quality of workmanship call, if it's not required by code. Minimum code is just that, minimum.

Norm Walters Construction Inc. Can you take a picture of the inside of the curb, that may be your ticket to a redo if they punctured the shower pan liner.

wmpj Mary - A permit wasn't needed for the job because none of the plumbing locations were going to be changed. However, after they started demo, we decided to replace the tub which did entail changing the location of the drain but they didn't get a permit for it. At least not that I know of.

Norm - Thanks for the advice on taking a picture of the shower pan liner. The floor of the shower is so filthy that it's hard to tell if it's been puctured but I did notice the inside curb isn't sealed properly. The tile subcontractor didn't use any type of fiberglass tape or mesh tape to seal the corners of the curb.

I'm still trying to find the plumbing codes. I did come across some amendments to the code but not the code itself.

wmpj Here's what the inside of the shower curb looks like.

Norm Walters Construction Inc. Here is your solution, the Durock was not installed according to manufacturer specifications which is 8" apart. More screws could be added to the exposed area that hasn't been tiled yet, but the tile that is installed will have to be removed. At that point talk about waterproofing the entire shower. Also check with the buiilding dept about whether a permit was required as the shower is suppose to be flood tested once the shower pan liner is in place, it gets inspected when filled with water to a point just below the top of the curb before the inspectors arrival.

http://www.usg.com/rc/installation-application/panels/durock-cement-board-installation-guide-en-CB237.pdf

Norm Walters Construction Inc. That curb is ugly for lack of a better word. You can't put any screws in the top of the curb either. This is the most common place where tile installers have no clue. There shouldn't be any cement board on the top or inside of the curb because there is no way to attach it without penetrating the liner. The proper way to do it is to screw a piece of cement board that is 2" high to the outside of the bottom of the curb, using a piece of wire lathe form it from the point of the top of the 2" piece of cement board, over the curb and to the bottom of the shower floor on top of the shower pan liner. The wire lathe is nailed on the outside of the curb only to hold it in place. At that point the bedding morter is placed in the shower and it holds the wire lathe in place on the inside of the curb. Mortar is then applied to the wire lathe.

wmpj Norm, too bad you're not close by.

Norm Walters Construction Inc. The tile guy can probably lay tile on floors ok, he just doesn't have enough experience to do showers. Tell your contractor school is out and you want someone that is experienced in the construction and waterproofing of showers. A shower is not a tile job were you can just pay a guy 2 or 3 dollars a foot to lay tile, there is alot more involved. Just noticed something else, there is a plaster guard that comes with a shower valve to protect the valve and use as a template for the cement board and the tile, it seems as yours was thrown away. Your shower valve trim may not fit if it is convex in the back. You also won't be able to reach the shut off screws on the valve, of course there aren't any shut off screws if the valve was purchased at one of the big box stores. This forces you to shut down the whole house if the valve needs servicing.

Luciana Have a look at how our guest en-suite was done - maybe you could tell your contractor you've seen other examples and they're different than what he's doing.
Our contractor was really good and we trusted him (generally) but still took photos of all the stages, just to make sure he's doing everything right.

wmpj Thanks Luciana for the pictures. What is the blue stuff on all the walls and floor in the bottom left picture?

Luciana You are welcome! I guess the blue is the same stuff as your red - clearly Blueguard, not red(gard). It was a rubber- plastic like substance they painted the walls with; it could be this one: http://www.wetrooms-online.com/Weber-Waterproofing-and-Drains-Tanking-Kits/invt/WEBER5KG or something similar. I remember the builder explaining to me about the importance of some mesh and tape they used in corners. The room had 2 coats of the blue stuff and an extra layer in corners and over the tape.

Hope this helps! Best of luck with your project (and especially tomorrow with the contractor!)

Yarbro Home Improvement LLC I feel sorry for this guy come Monday morning ;)

leo261 Hello wm.
listen to Norm and Thomas, having done tile work myself for over five years. I see problems starting at the shower pan, coming up to the walls with the corners (which is the most critical area) left unprotected, the messy sloppy work and the wrong choice of adhesive for those kind of tiles. U gotta stop ur tile contractor now before u find urself with the same problem u had before redoing ur bathroom.
Do it once, do it right!

olldroo Glad you had some photos Luciana, I must have somehow deleted mine, but that is how my ensuite and bathroom looked too, except the whole floor was done and my wall panels were attached horizontally so the walls were only done about 6 ins past the join.

wmpj, I'm so thrilled you have had so much help here and can now feel so much more confident facing your contractor and tiler tomorrow. Good luck, please let us know how you get on.

S. Thomas Kutch Wmpj........the more pictures you post the worse it looks. Norm is spot on about the curb construction and this guy who the GC let do this job doesn't know squat. I'm sorry to say that this is what happens usually when permits aren't pulled............my recommendation is fire the tile guy tomorrow morning first thing.......right now everything he's done is suspect. If it was me, I would tearing everything out down to studs and sub floor or slab and starting over with someone who actually knew what they were doing..........I'm afraid it's going to become one of those do it now or do in a couple of years, take your pick. Very little has been done properly on this from hanging the Durock to his feeble attempts at waterproofing and we haven't even begun to discuss the piss poor tile installation. It appears as if he's splotching pre-mixed thin set to set the tile leaving voids and gaps that he's relying on the grout to seal.............enough of the learning on your dime. Fire the sub and if the GC doesn't understand .....fire his ass too. Get some knowledgeable people in there to resolve the problem before it becomes a nightmare and even more costly effort.

When you do get qualified people, go pull your permit........do it right. This is most definitely one of those "if you can't afford to do it right the first time, you can't afford to do it twice" type situations.

wmpj I have an update - I spoke with the Senior Plumbing Inspector for my county and he said what they're concerned with is making sure the shower pan is done correctly and is lined. Thankfully ours was done correctly. I also spoke with the person who is supervising our bathroom project. He said he would correct the problems which he did. The shower was redone and turned out well. I feel much better now that the shower is sealed. To those of you who questioned whether a premixed thinset was being used or not, it was not. The tile sub did mix his own thinset.

Thanks again for all of your help. It was much appreciated.

olldroo What a relief it all went so smoothly and without the need for confrontation. Of course, you know the rules now, we do have to see the finished product :)

kimdee24 Glad to hear thing are correct now. Wish I had caught my builder before they'd finished. Maybe we could've avoided ripping my shower apart TWICE just two months after I moved in.

Mary Dancey Interiors Wonderful news wmpj! Please post pictures when the project is completed!

wmpj The bathroom was just finished today. Here are pictures of what it looks like now. I'll also post pictures of what it looked like before. We plan on redoing the cabinets, countertops, mirrors and lights later. The room looks a bit bland now but I still need to add curtains, art, rugs and towels. I'm not sure yet if I like the wall color. So much has changed in this room that I think I'm still adjusting to it all. I'm considering repainting the walls a medium or dark grey down the road.

wmpj Here is what the bathroom looked like before.

olldroo I like how much more functional you have made your shower. Do you need to redo the rest? It all looks fine from here. I think some art and colour in towels and accessories will make a big difference, I think your wall colour works well as is.

wmpj Thanks olldroo. In person, the cabinets look out of place with the rest. If we had to put our house on the market, I think we would be fine but it would be nice to update them. They are just your adverage builder grade white laminate cabinet. I'm having a hard time finding pictures/art that would work in the room. I'm not really sure what colors to use. I did buy a soap pumb and toothbrush holders that have gray and brown in them. I chose gray because both the floor and wall tiles have gray in them.

olldroo wmpj - hard to tell detail from photos, they just all looked good. I think with grey/brown you could really go all out with colour. Have you thought about using a theme - I love beach for bathrooms, but maybe you have some holiday photos that could be enlarged, if they are o/s ones bring in some themes or accessories from that country. You could try a seasonal theme and even change it around each season. A bathroom is one room in the house where you can let your head go and have some fun.