John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. There is a lot that goes into warming a shower floor. I'm not a huge fan of the heating pads as an option but I am a huge fan of the heating wire. Our tile industry has two big players that regulate our tile installation techniques

TTMAC in Canada (http://www.ttmac.com)
TCNA in USA (http://www.tcnatile.com)

Both recommend that the heating system be installed under the showers waterproofing. If you would like more information on how to do this I suggest you contact these three people.

Carolyn Mason carolynm@nuheat.com
Nelson Wilner nwilner@noblecompany.com
Dale Kempster DKempster@schluter.com

I would further suggest you hire a member of the NTCA or TTMAC for the installation. Installing electricity under your shower should be done by a pro.

Simply building a shower to drain properly and not fall apart will improve air quality. Having proper ventilation and warm floors will only further improve the design.

JW

Rick Spence The Panasonic fans are exceptional and highly recommended. They're well made, quiet and move a ton of air. Could not agree more.

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. Thanks FunkyFresh.

We just installed one of Panasonic's ventilation fans in a master walk in closet last year. My clients said it was night and day difference when they came back from a 4 month trip to the UK. What used to be a stale odour in the closets was replaced by no odour in the closets.

I made the mistake of not getting a 14/3 wire run from the switch to the fan. The ventilation fan I had installed has the option to kick in for a turbo blast with we a switch toggle on toggle off flip.

Same great fan but with some extra options.

We installed the Whisper Green Fan without the light. Needed to custom order it from back East. Took about 2 weeks to arrive to my wholesaler here in Vancouver.

https://panasonic.ca/English/ventilationfans/whispergreen.asp#.UQlDPKVC7Po

If you plan to use the low speed high speed option - don't forget to pull a 14/3 wire versus a 14/2. JW

kennedytarheel We put the Panasonic fan you featured in our newly remodeled bath last year...it works as well as you say it does. We often think it's off but it's on...it's that quiet. It moves a lot of air too.

aeykelbo Thanks for a great article - and nice to see a fellow Vancouverite on houzz!

I'm going to check out the fan you mentioned, but I think that if somebody is going to go with a silent fan then they really MUST also have the timer. Otherwise, it would always be left on and would wind up using more energy than a less efficient fan!

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. That is a really good point "aeykelbo" - I had not thought about the wasted energy of running the fan too long. Learn something new everyday. I used my drill and bashed the vent stopper to bend it a little for my powder room fan off the dining room.

A little crude but effective. Once I bent the flapper a little it makes a little noise rattling and provides me and any guests a little background cover noise! lol

JW

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. I just opened up the new Nuheat Harmony Thermostat that connects inside the wall and has a flush double decora trim plate. Very slick design! I like that the thermostat is not proud of the wall.

I'm thinking I can wrap the back of the 4"x4" electrical box with some Quiet Rock Electrical Sound Reduction Puddy and really remove the clicking sounds you normally associate with thermostat switches. Paired up with some SafeNSound insulation this really might make a difference to this cycling noise.

Anyone else tried this?

JW

Marc Stevenson Hi. A question regarding point 5 - Make sure shower panels leave room for ventilation. What disadvantage is there in having a fully enclosed shower (no room for ventilation) for a common (non-steam) shower? Is it a case of allowing for the shower to dry out in between uses to prevent mold/mildew? Or is a fully enclosed shower by definition a steam shower?

For me a fully enclosed shower would keep moisture in a designated wet area (ie, the shower) and prevent humid air from getting into the rest of the bathroom. A fully enclosed shower would also make for a warmer shower experience because the air in the shower heats up and stays hot because it doesn't rise and escape.

I'm about to build a new house and have been considering a fully enclosed shower for these reasons.

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. Marc if you want to keep as much heat and moisture inside the shower your dry out times will be greatly extended if you keep the door closed after using your shower. A transom located near a fan will help draw air through the door gaps and out the ceiling. Causing more air flow through the shower and speeding up the dry times when the door is left closed.

Is your shower going to be a steam shower as well?

This small transom in this steam shower does wonders speeding up the dry put period after a long steam.

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. Couple more shots of the transom in the closed and open positions beside a Panasonic Whisper Quiet Fan.

The owner rigged up this clever stopper to keep more steam from escaping the steam shower. You can view more pictures of this bathroom here;

Kirsten Andenas Can the Panasonic fan be installed on the wall? My new-to-me, flat roof, mid-century house has no bathroom fan. Seems better to go through the wall than mess with the roof???

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. Try emailing Corrine Howard @ Panasonic. She can point you in the right direction.

Corrine.Howard@ca.panasonic.com

Can you go out and down a soffit? Many times this is possible. Maybe post a picture out the bathroom window looking up at the roof. JW

Kirsten Andenas Unfortunately, there's no soffit whatsoever. The house is a big box.

midmodfan Kirsten, we have the same fans in two bathrooms, one is in a wall and the other in the ceiling. I can't think of a reason why that shouldn't work with any modern fan.

dboumaza We have an old model of fan , can we add a timer? Like connecting it to a timer?

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. Some times you can not install a fan on an exterior wall - there is just no room to fit it in. You might also not get any insulation in there and create a cold zone. You might be able to build a low bulkhead above the vanity and sneak the vent line out the wall here. With the addition of some small down lights this can look very sharp.

As for switching out a switch for a dimmer this should be very easy to do. On some occassion you will find that your wiring inside the electrical box is over stuffed or too many connections in place. If this is the case you may need to change the box to get more room but in either case it's always safer to bring in an electrician.

I'm not sure what the code is in the US but here in Canada only a ticket electrican can work on a rental unit - so if your fixing things up for a tenant hire a pro.

JW

World Contracting LLC a great tip is to use insulated flex pipe to prevent condensing on the outside.

another great article, John

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. I'm not a fan of the flex pipe at all. We will insulate the duct line in an attic space but we never use the flexible pipe. Flexible pipe has a much larger surface area due to the waffles.

How to rig these fans up is an ideabook in itself. JW

grwebster Many times a better thought out built-in design could eliminate the need for a shower door altogether. Also why does every one insist that the shower drain be exactly under the shower head, right where you will be standing. Unfortunately most prefab showers have this fault but showers are not difficult to make from scratch and even nicer when lined with stone or tile- in these cases the drain can be offset easily.
I have included these details in 4 bathrooms. Just sayin

Tom Huggins We remodled our master bath last year. we replaced the tub shower adn counters with cultured marble. We did a solid glass shower completely enclosed for a steam shower effect. We just leave the door open for proper air flow after using the shower. We had 8 ft tall custom doors made so there is very good air flow with the door just slightly open. We also installed radiant heat under a walnut looking ceramic tile. If you DIY radiant flooring it will likely not come with enoughof the aluminum tape to hold the wires in place. I used a hot glue gun adn put a small dot of hot glue every 6 inches. You then press the glue dot down after it partially cools. THis holds the wires in place very well so they do not move or float when you do the overlayment of cement prior to tiling.
The heated floors are programed to be warm by 630 and shut off at 9, then be warm by 730 pm and shut off at 10 pm. This way the floor is always nice and warm when you willlikely be barefoot on the floor. Our bath room is the northwest corner of our home. It wa previously unuseable in the winter time. Now it is a very wonderful experience. i will never do a bathroom again with out heated floors. They probably cost about $10 per month in electric at $0.09 per KWH. But it si well worth it in our case.
I do still need to replace the fan with the panasonic. we have had them in previous houses. they are great. the timer is a very good idea.

n312 Heated floor tiles seemed like an extravagant addition to our bathroom remodels. Best. Decision. Ever. Our house heating system leaves a lot to be desired but with warm floors to step onto after a shower or bath, its hard to imagine not having the heat on the floor. If you can stretch your budget to get a heated floor, do it.

Tom Huggins I agree. I think the heat portion of my flooring was under $300. it seemed high at the time but it was worth it. I did use the 1/2 inch Hardy wall board under my heated floor instead ofthe 1/4 inch tile board. the thought process was the thicker material woudl make heating better and more consistent. My floors are very nicely warm even though they are on the north west corner adn the crawl space entrance is right under the bathroom. I am thinking through insulations ideas for the crawl space now. I am leaning toward blowing shreaded foam in and holding it in place with a poly mesh. I would use the scrap foam from ICF blocks, because it is flame retardent.

Colleen Carter Another option is to install a fan with a humidistat feature - it senses humidity and automatically turns on the fan. We installed a Delta Breez fan in the bath used mainly by our daughter (assuming she would be likely to forget to always turn on the fan...). When the humidity rises above 60%, it automatically turns on and turns itself off when it drops below 60%. The fan can also be turned on manually for... ahem... other ventilation needs ;-) Also turns out to be one of the most energy efficient (less than $8 per year if it was kept on 24/7!) and quiet fans out there (less than 3 sones). Our local building department gives green points for installing a humidistat fan, so it was a total win-win!

http://tinyurl.com/aqmlgqz

We have a Panasonic wall fan in another bathroom and I'm going to add a timer to that one - great recommendation!

cozarth Heated floors were the biggest waste of money in our new house. Ours takes 1 to 1.5 hours to get the floor warm. Everyone in the house is done by then and I have just wasted a lot of electricity. I don't remember the brand but it was whatever Lowe's carries.

Tom Huggins I have mine on a programmable thermostat. It knows when I want the floors warm and how long it will take to get them there at the given temperature. Mine may kick on a few minutes before the proramed time to an hour depending on the floor temp. my system has a temp probe in the floor. Perhaps you need to get a programmable thermostat for your system. i am sure you would like it better.
The company I bought mine from recomended putting 2 temp probes in teh floor so if one goes out you have a backup. I did not do that, but I should have. Food for thought if anyone is thinking about installing floor heat. Mine hav ebeen down for a year since Christmas. they work great and are nice to walk on. I will do floor heat in any future house I build. I may go hydronic in the future with an outdoor boiler.

n312 We have ours on a programmable aube thermostat but honestly, we leave it on all the time in the winter. Our contractor suggested that since it takes so long to heat up and adds a minimal amount overall to the energy bill each month, we are better off leaving it on so that even middle-of-the-night trips to the bathroom will leave us with warm feet.

kmoran1234 I constantly refer to John's advise. I am currently renovating two bathrooms, each has a functioning window, one located in shower stall and another in the room opposite shower stall. My contractor is installing exhaust/ventilation in shower stall. However, he is venting into attic space. Not venting through to any exterior pipe/exhaust system. Is this an ok practice or am I going to have moisture problems in attic space. Your advise is highly regarded so an immediate response is appreciated.

kuzushi "Not venting through to any exterior pipe/exhaust system. Is this an ok practice or am I going to have moisture problems in attic space."

There is absolutely no excuse to vent into an attic space, the vent should end up outside the attic space. Serious issues of mould will arise because of moisture being released into a cold space

chris sorichetti we bought a house with in-floor heating but with water, not electric. Not sure if there's one better than the other, but from what I can determine, the controls are on one big panel in the basement - not the most convient of places. The fan that we have is a whole home air exchanger, though I hear they're great to have, I find it doesn't remove moisture or odours out of the bathroom in a respectable time. Our older home with dedicated exhaust fans did a lot better.

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. The fan should not be in the shower if possible. Just outside like I showcase above in my Idea Book. The fan should not be allowed to exhaust into the attic at all. The duct line for the fan should be made of solid piping not flexible and should go out the roof, out a gable wall or out the soffit.

When you pump warm moist air into a cold frozen attic - what do you think is going to happen? Attic spaces are design to allow for convection and some air movement to dry things out. Adding moisture to the equation is a bad idea.

Call your local building department and ask for some recommendations. JW

World Contracting LLC Venting into the attic is a code violation here in the states. some regions dont even get cold weather, our codes may slightly vary from state to state and town to town. Attic venting has caused roof sheeting to rot and determinate, mold spores to fester and grow. Installing the fan is the hard part, terminating it outside is easiest task you could do...

again, always follow manufacturers directions for what piping to use and how to pipe. I agree that solid piping is better, but when installing an inline fan that calls for insulated flex duct 20' downstream, do not substitute!!

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. Matt I would bet if you called the fan company and asked if you could use solid pipe and insulated it you would be O.K. 20' of flex pipe would be so much surface area inside. We would never use a flex line and would always change to a rigid pipe.

I would call the manufacture or change fan suppliers if the spec was a flex line. One little rodent chewing a hole in the pipe would cause all sorts of issues.

JW

World Contracting LLC You make a valid point and that is something everyone on this site should learn to do:

That is if you would like to deviate from the manufacturers instructions, weather installing a fan or installing a linear drain, call the manufacturer and speak to a tech or rep to see if a substitution is allowed. We talk about this alot with regard to tile installation over certain products... Local building codes will also play a part in materials used.

but not to fan the fire, company's like Fantech report CFM after recommended length of flex pipe, not free spinning (no pipe) like other company's where resistance plays a huge part.... the numbers are misleading, your 110CFM becomes 70 CFM after 2 elbows and a 20' run...

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. Matt the flex pipe adds an incredible amount of surface area. The fan should be installed so it points towards the exit (the exhaust outlet). 90 degree bends are silly and rolling a couple 45's is better. A rigid pipe installed properly, taped off will out preform a flex pipe any day of the week. I'd bet on it.

The panasonic fan points straight back and is easy to get the pipe running in the right direction from the start. I'm excited to see the new fans and products at the Panasonic booth next week at Build Ex. I'll ask the sales reps if they have any data on the performance between rigid duct lines and flex lines. I'll bet you $20.00 that the rigid pipe wins every time!


That and I've seen how nasty a flex pipe gets. I've seen the duct cleaners blow right through them with their air lines.

It was my duct HVAC cleaning guy who warned me of the pitfalls of the flex line. That was about 11 years ago and we have never used one since. Not for our fans. Not for our dryers. Not for our stoves. Never ever.... ! JW

ajdalton John, Would you like to come and work on a bathroom in the state of Virginia.....okay, I will throw in two bathrooms to make it worth your while!! Most important that I find a qualified plumber yet I am so overwhelmed, I need someone to be accountable for the entire bathrooms AND not charge me huge $$$$$$$$$.

rbeller The article left out towel warmers. We renovated a home with small internal bathrooms with no windows. The new fan and towel warmers work together to dry out the moisture in the small space so we can still see ourselves in the mirror.

amyy Hi, we have a small bathroom that was recently redone that takes hours for the ceiling to dry. The bathroom is 5'x7' with 7' ceiling, neoangle shower with glass to the ceiling on 2 sides and a 7" gap on the third side. We have a whisper Panasonic fan that works (tried tp test) about 10" from the shower opening. Anything you would advise? Should the glass have gaps on all 3 sides instead of going to the ceiling? We usually leave the door open after showering and take short (5-8 min) showers. Thank you!

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. @ ajdalton - I would love to come and build your bathrooms. I don't fair so well on jobs that have "Budgets"..... lol I might break the bank. I like your reference to someone being accountable. This is easy if you hire a Pro tile setter. Look for a 5 star NTCA member.

USA 5 Star - https://www.tile-assn.com/Member/FiveStar.aspx?mid=84

for the Canadians in the house hire a member of the TTMAC

Canada TTMAC - http://www.ttmac.com/membership-directory.html

You might also find a qualified installer from one of the Marble Associations or someone recommended by the CTEF

CTEF - http://www.tilecareer.com

You can easily check your plumbers work with a 200 PSI pressure test on the water lines and a flood test of the drain and vent lines. After this have the tile man or woman prepare the waterproofing system. This way it is the tile setter responsible for the water tightness. Not the plumber.

Also let the tile setter do the wall boarding or float the walls.

Specify that the TCNA guidelines be followed. If your Canadian specify that the TTMAC guidelines be followed. If you do not own a guide book or specification book your not really following due diligence. You need to know how the best jobs get build. How commercial projects get specified. These guidebooks are our tile industry's bibles.

JW

Get the TTMAC Specifications here http://www.ttmac.com/component/seminar/?itemId=5
Get the TCNA Specifications here http://www.tcnatile.com/products-and-services/publications.html

And always flood test the shower. Most of the USA is under the IRC Building Code - it requires only a 15 minute flood test. Ask for and demand a 72 hour test, 24 hours at the very least.

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. Amy do you have a squeegee? It might be a good idea to knock as much water off the ceiling, and walls as you can.

I have developed a system of incorporating more air flow in the shower but this needs to be planned on from the very start. I have almost finished my testing but am very impressed with the progress so far.

Amy send me some pictures of your bathroom and shower - I might see something that has not been mentioned. Maybe I can come up with a solution for you. jfrwhipple@gmail.com

JW

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. @ rbeller - I do not get the pleasure of installing enough towel warmers on my job. I have researched the towel warmer in agonizing detail and found the one company I like best to be the New Zealand product - Heirloom. http://www.heirloom.co.nz/search?filters%5Bcategories%5D%5B%5D=38

These towel warmers (remote switched) do not have plugs, lights, switches or any warning labels on them that say "No wet towels". No red lights. No orange lights. Just a sleek design.

It is important to remember that most code state that no plugs or switches can be within one meter of 36" from a shower or tub. Now where do you want your warm towel?

I'm not sure if a towel warmer helps with ventilation but it certainly does raise the quality of daily life by warmer these towels. It also can improve the smell of a bathroom by keeping the towels dry so they don't hang damp and get that funky towel smell. JW

rosslynn Why is it that a fan cannot be installed in a steam shower ? Would it not be the most efficient way to stop moisture spread?

We have been thinking of running hose from shower wall down to crawlspace beneath and installing fan down there to draw air from shower (fan to be vented outside of course). Would this be problematic?

departure: architecture planning interiors llc Great article! Regarding towel warmers (or any heat source), it's worth clarifying that heat does not remove moisture (or even help to remove it) - warm air just holds more moisture meaning that you see less condensation on the mirror or otherwise (so it only seems like there's less moisture). In either scenario (warm or cooler), the same amount of moisture exists in the room. Only ventilation (mechanical or natural) can remove moisture. That's why, as the author states, the exhaust fan is imperative.

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. A fan in your steam shower will get saturated with vapour and the duct line would act like a chimney allowing small amounts of water in with every use. I believe a typical steam session uses about 3-5gallons of water turned into steam vapour. If you loose a little around the fan location you may cause any wooden framing to swell or any steel stud framing to rust.

Steam vapour needs to be contained to the steam shower. We use a product called Kerdi Fix for sealing our penetrations and also a product called Noble Sealant 150.

Many of the higher end plumbing fixtures have been designed to be vapour proof. The fixtures from Dornbracht are the best i've ever seen and so well designed. With each rough in from Dornbract you get a custom rough in cover that ties into a Kerdi Band flashing. This combination ensures that the unit is vapour proof and also safe guards against an internal failure. If the unit was to leak it comes out the rough in and throw the trim alerting the home owner that the fixture has failed.

If the plumber is unaware what these piece are for they should be placed somewhere safe until the tile setter shows up. Unlike many North American fixtures these rough in's stay in place until the tile work is finished. When the waterproofing is done the flashing pieces get install right tight to the rough in. We use a bead of Kerdi Fix around these connection points.

Of course the German's thought this could be confusing.

Here is a picture explaining how to handle the transfer. "das is sehr gut" LOL


"When it's perfect. It's good enough." - JW

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. I was at Build EX here in Vancouver the other day giving a seminar on Steam Shower Design and Construction and took advantage of the free Speaker Pass I received to take in the show. We found the Panasonic booth and checked out what's new from them.

They have a great new fan coming onto the market I'm told. It has a two setting light which is LED. Perfect for night light settings and regular use.

Here is a peak. I asked why there was no LED option with colour and told them I could work it out for them if need be.....lol JW

amyy Hi John, here are a few pics of my small br with neoangle shower. We do squeegee after every shower. Thank you!

calikym If you have several windows in the bathroom and a large window in the shower, do you still need a fan? Thanks for the advice, John.

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. Here in Vancouver the fan is a requirement. Where do you live?

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. If you get the low profile grill from Panasonic you get all the function of a fan but without the Eye Sore of many fan grills. This low profile grill is my favourite. I keep a few extra's on hand in case I need to replace a uglier version.

When placing the grill have the grill lines run cross angle to the man focal view. This helps hide the fan from sight. The grills I have from Pansonic can be switched either or but not all do. Check this before installing the fan if yours is not reversible.

Bill Fry Construction - Wm. H. Fry Const. Co. In addition to using a fan, a window also works wonders (given the right weather). :) Rhoda

prim0 John, in picture #2... how would you attach the metal fan grille to the tile without jeopardizing the waterproofing?

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. Picture #2 would not have waterproofing up that high I would imagine. We typically stop our waterproofing in a shower at about 6' off of grade. In a steam shower it's walls and ceiling and we would not place a fan in a steam shower.

slooper2 Are there any good alternatives for bathrooms in condos that have a central exhaust system, but that still need extra (ventless) ventilation?

rilgen How about using bathroom fans in conjuction with a HRV system?

slooper2 Thanks for the suggestion, @rilgen. That sounds like an interesting option - Does anyone know of a stand-alone application of this type?

caribg We are in the process of our bath remodel...we are planning a fan/light IN our shower with an 8' ceiling. We are going with one like you've pictured from the Panasonic booth at Build Ex. The shower will have two sides that are open at the top. It will not be a steam shower. Thoughts?

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. I'm not a huge fan of the heat recovery systems. We have ripped out more than we have installed. I think a house should have a certain degree of air leakage and wasting a little warm air is not the worst thing in my book.

I do not like fans in a shower. There is no way to stop steam vapour from rising into them.

Having never installed a fan ever in a shower I can not comment on how they will hold up long term. Perhaps I'm being to hard on this set up???

JW

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. @Slooper2 - You asked "Are there any good alternatives for bathrooms in condos that have a central exhaust system, but that still need extra (ventless) ventilation?"

I had lunch with the Panasonic Rep at Build Ex and he chatted about some new products that have not come across my radar before. Turns out that Panasonic makes a room to room fan that solely moves air around a home.

My basement suffers from poor air quality and I will be purchasing a few of these to test out this new product. I'm going to pull in warm air from my living room and dump it into my basement office. From my basement office to my laundry room and from there to the kids playroom. This should improve the air quality a lot.

This is not a huge priority for me at the momment but I'll keep you posted.

HAs anyone else used these Panasonic room to room fans with good success?

rilgen Not a big fan of HRV? A house should have a certain amount of air leakage? I'm glad your not building my house!

John Whipple - By Any Design ltd. Hi Rilgen. I just built my house and and we have no HRV. All my fans exhaust directly outside.

Personally I feel our homes are being made to tight and I find with some homes the air in a house is stale. This is my choice of course and many have opposing views.

I have no forced air in my home and use old fashion radiators.

I've seen what these duct lines look like in 5, 10, 20 years and it's nasty. In my home we use mini HEpa Filters, windows and fans to move air around.

We went two years with only 2 0f 21 rads hooked up. My home is well insulated and leaks air exactly where I want it to.

If you look at my work you might reconsider letting me build your home. We are really good at what we do! JW

brigand Nobody mentioned this one.

Preheat the bathroom. Set your thermostat to turn on the heat 15 minutes before you take a shower.

Set your thermostat to warm up the room before you shower. Steam likes nothing more than a cold surface to condense on, look at a cold window. Warmer walls condense less moisture.

I notice coastal people, like in Vancouver, keep there houses colder than say prairie people (like me sometimes). Their bathrooms, given a shower of the same time absolutely soak their walls.

My warmer preheated Calgary bathroom is much dryer, fan or no fan. Of course the relative humidity is higher on the coast, but that can be offset by warming the air too. Warmer air holds more water, then you suck that water laden air our with your fan rather than it condensing on the cooler walls and floors. Let the heat go down 20 minutes after you have used your shower, when the fan goes off, and your bathroom is dry. That works in my NL house.